Homebrew Digest #5604 (September 09, 2009)

HOMEBREW Digest #5604 Wed 09 September 2009

FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org

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Contents:
Darrell blew it! ("Brian Lundeen")
Swing top bottles (Glyn and Mary)
Flat beer follow up (Tom Puskar)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 23:13:59 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at mts.net>
Subject: Darrell blew it!

> Contents:
> Re: Flat Beer (Joel Wilson)
> flat beer ("Darrell G. Leavitt")
> Re: Flat Beer (Fred L Johnson)
> Re: Flat Beer (Glyn and Mary)
> Re: Flat beer (stencil)
> RE: Flat beer ("Mike Patient")
> RE: Flat Beer (Josh Knarr)
> RE: Flat Beer ("RJ")

Damn! For the first time in HBD history, we could have had an entire
contents menu of 8 identical responses, and Darrell "Gee I Have to be
Different" Leavitt has to go and muck with the default subject line. Way to
go, Darrell. Go sit in a corner and contemplate your bad with a Coors Light.

Aaaagh!!!

Bwian

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 05:30:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Glyn and Mary <graininfuser at yahoo.com>
Subject: Swing top bottles

I bottled in swing top for 10+ years. The gaskets do
go bad. Whenever I opened a beer that was flatter
than average, I pulled the gasket off. Next time I
bottled I put on a new gasket. It was generally only
one or two per 10 gallon batch.

If you are going to bottle swing tops are the
best IMO. Visit a local German restaurant and
ask for their empties!

Glyn
So. Middle TN

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 20:02:06 -0400
From: Tom Puskar <tpuskar at optonline.net>
Subject: Flat beer follow up

Thanks to everyone who responded to my previous post. Here's a summary of
some of the questions that were posed and what I believe to be my problem.

1. The Dubbel was fermented at basement temps here in NJ. The temp was
about close to 80F during the primary. I tried the wet t-shirt trick to
cool it down but it didn't drop too much below 76F
2. The heat wave subsided a bit and the secondary was closer to 75F during
the approximately two weeks.
3. The temp following bottling is low 70's--probably around 72-74F
4. As someone noted, I may have waited too long before racking to the
secondary. There wasn't much activity in the airlock when I racked. I was
planning to rack earlier but that darn job thing sent me on a trip for a few
days.
5. The beer settled to nearly crystal clear in the secondary--again it sat
a few days longer than I had planned. I'm gonna hafta do something about
this job thing. Its cramping my brewing style!
6. I purposely tried not to scoop up too much sediment from the secondary
when I racked to the bottling bucket and herein lies my problem--I think.
7. I boiled my caps for about 10 minutes but I've always done that and
unless some manufacturer changed the liner formulation I don't think that's
the problem.
8. I think I have enough corn sugar in the beer, its the yeast I'm
concerned about.
9. I tried rousting the yeast (there does seem to be some sediment in the
bottles) by inverting each bottle a few times. I'll do it again in a day or
so then check if I got better carbonation.

Bottom line is, aside from possibly being impatient, I think my yeast pooped
out. I probably was too zealous in trying to get a clear beer and racked to
the secondary too late and didn't scoop enough yeast from the secondary into
he bottling bucket.

The alcohol content (went from 1.07 to 1.01 may be contributing to making
the yeast a bit sluggish. When I used to make Trippels and while back, I
used to wash the sediment from the primary and add it back when bottling.
This probably would have worked here too.

I'll wait a few days and test both a Grolsch bottle and a regular long neck
and see if the rousing did any good. That's the part I like best--the
testing!

I'm toying with opening each bottle and adding some new yeast but I'm
concerned about potential contamination and will only do that if the rousing
and time don't work.

Thanks again to all who responded.

I'll report on any results in a week or two.

Tom in Howell, NJ

------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5604, 09/09/09
*************************************
-------

Homebrew Digest #5603 (September 08, 2009)

HOMEBREW Digest #5603 Tue 08 September 2009

FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org

***************************************************************
TODAY'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

Sponsor The Home Brew Digest!
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Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a
501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton Township, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
or more will be provided with receipts. SPONSORSHIPS of any
amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a business expense. Please consult with your
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************

Contents:
Re: Flat Beer (Joel Wilson)
flat beer ("Darrell G. Leavitt")
Re: Flat Beer (Fred L Johnson)
Re: Flat Beer (Glyn and Mary)
Re: Flat beer (stencil)
RE: Flat beer ("Mike Patient")
RE: Flat Beer (Josh Knarr)
RE: Flat Beer ("RJ")

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* The HBD Logo Store is now open! *
* http://www.hbd.org/store.html *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
meet its meager operating expenses of approximately $3400
per year. If less than half of those currently directly
subscribed to the HBD sent in a mere $5.00, the HBD would
be able to easily meet its annual expenses, with room to
spare for next year. Please consider it.

As always, donors and donations are publicly acknowledged
and accounted for on the HBD web page. THank you

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

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instead to http://homebrewfleamarket.com and post a free ad there.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright
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before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content
cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to
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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
and Spencer Thomas

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 14:07:40 +1000
From: Joel Wilson <450shakey at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Flat Beer

Tom,

I have heard that overheating caps can compromise the seals and that
they should not be sanitized by boiling.
I am not sure if this is your problem, and it may be a brand specific
issue, but might be worth looking into.

If the swing tops come out ok then that would be further evidence
pointing to the caps also.

Cheers,
Joel

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 06:27:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Darrell G. Leavitt" <leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu>
Subject: flat beer

I would add a bit more corn sugar for bottling, then make sure that you do
siphon just a touch of yeast off of the bottom when trnasferring into the
bottling bucket. This may help.

You haven't said what the temperature was after bottling, and this may be
an issue too.

Let us all know the results.

Darrell

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 07:38:03 -0400
From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson52 at nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Flat Beer

Tom has two beers that haven't carbonated in the bottle after several
weeks.

It sounds like you just proved to yourself (and again to me) that some
things you read in the homebrewing literature or hear in homebrewing
forums aren't universally true. In this case it is the idea that there
are ALWAYS plenty of yeast in suspension to bottle condition the beer.

The IPA that has been in the bottle for six weeks probably needs some
fresh yeast. I'm not so sure about the Belgian Dubbel. You might want
to wait another week on this one as it sounds like some carbonation is
being produced. (I'm assuming you are keeping these bottles at a
temperature of least 65 degrees F.)

It wasn't clear which beer you were describing as being the primary
for 10 days and in a secondary for two weeks. In my experience, an
extended sit in the secondary yields a beer that is always deficient
in yeast and that will need a yeast boost at bottling.

I would recommend adding to each bottle about 1 million cells per mL
or about 355 million cells per 12 oz. bottle.

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 05:06:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Glyn and Mary <graininfuser at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Flat Beer

Personally I would not boil the caps. Yes I did it as a newbie, and it
didn't hurt. But why chance it. If you want to sanitize caps, use
something else, idphore(sp), starsan, etc.

With that being said what temperature are the bottles at? Did you
try rousing the yeast?

Glyn
So. Middle TN

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 09:18:19 -0400
From: stencil <etcs.ret at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Flat beer

On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 23:23:43 -0400,
in Homebrew Digest #5602 (September 07, 2009)
you wrote:

Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 12:31:45 -0400
>From: Tom Puskar <tpuskar at optonline.net>
>Subject: Flat beer
>
> When I racked
>it to the bottling bucket it was crystal clear and tastes great--but its
>flat! I hear a bit of a "pfft" when I open it but no detectable
>carbonation.
>

Flat - or just not making a head? If you drop it forcibly into a
pilsener or other tall glass, do you get any foam at all? If you
slide it smoothly into such a glass, chilled, and then warm it, can
you see bubbles ascending? Finally, is there any yeast cake at the
bottom of each bottle?
If it does turn out that the problem is one of headlessness, there
might be contamination by residual cleanser in the fermenter or
bottling bucket. Or, excessive protein degredation in a
low-temperature mash. Is it possible your mash thermometer is
reading high, or that there may have been too slow a ramp-up to
saccharification temps, or that faulty stirring might have left you
reading the temp of a local hot pocket?

If you have access to some FermTabs or Cooper's Drops, try doping a
couple of the Grolsch bottles to about 50-75% more carbonation than
you originally estimated.

Sometimes debugging is as much fun as recipe formulation.

gds, stencil

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 11:34:45 -0400
From: "Mike Patient" <mpatient at rta.biz>
Subject: RE: Flat beer

I've been having a similar problem lately, but rather than no carbonation,
I get some that are and some that aren't. I've been reading a lot about it
lately and for me,
I think it is my bottles. I also use Grolsh bottles,
but I think a few of the stoppers don't work properly.
I am starting to tag them to see if it's the problem or not.
When reading I found that a lot of the cases of low/no carbonation
is due to a lack of healthy yeast to ferment during bottling.
When racking to secondary, it is important that you rack towards the end of
the primary, NOT after.
A good measure is the amount of bubbling going on in the airlock,
I've started to rack when it gets to 4-5 bubbles a minute.
This is approximate, but it lets you know the yeast is still alive and
fermenting.
If you rack to late, you aren't really doing a secondary fermentation,
you are just clearing the beer. Making a 'dubbel',
I can see why you want to give it as much time in the primary fermentor,
but racking to the secondary isn't for after primary, it's to separate the
live yeast from the trub.

It would be nice to know how the Grolsh bottles you have did.
Anyone else having Grolsh bottle problems??

Mike

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 16:11:37 -0400
From: Josh Knarr <josh.knarr at gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Flat Beer

Tom,

For whatever strange reason whenever I've done a high gravity beer,
it's taken it quite a bit of time to carbonate. Last one I did in the
1.090 range took four weeks before we have a bottle with a fizz.

One of the tricks I found is that if you're making an ale on the
cooler side or you're leaving it in the fermenter or you have a very
good hot or cold break - try to get some yeast back in suspension at
bottling time. This doesn't mean shake the carboy, but try to suck a
bit of the stuff on top of the cake up along with the unprimed beer.
Get that in suspension and then toss in the sugar. If you're totally
anal about not sucking any yeast up, you may really have gotten some
extremely clean bottles and have very little yeast in suspension.

If you've fermented things out to being very dry, you may also have
hit the tolerance of the yeast for alcohol and the little bugs are
dead. This is why the Belgians often ferment with one yeast and bottle
with another - the original yeast is passed on, no more, ceased to be,
expired and gone to meet it's maker, become a stiff, befrit of life
and rests in peace.

Hope I've helped,
Josh

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 18:25:01 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsup at metrocast.net>
Subject: RE: Flat Beer

Gee Tom,

You mention everything but the temp that your carbonating at.

You should let it carbonate about 10F warmer than fermantation.

RJ

------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5603, 09/08/09
*************************************
-------

Homebrew Digest #5602 (September 07, 2009)

HOMEBREW Digest #5602 Mon 07 September 2009

FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org

***************************************************************
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Sponsor The Home Brew Digest!
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DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a
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FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton Township, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
or more will be provided with receipts. SPONSORSHIPS of any
amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
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tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************

Contents:
Flat beer (Tom Puskar)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* The HBD Logo Store is now open! *
* http://www.hbd.org/store.html *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
meet its meager operating expenses of approximately $3400
per year. If less than half of those currently directly
subscribed to the HBD sent in a mere $5.00, the HBD would
be able to easily meet its annual expenses, with room to
spare for next year. Please consider it.

As always, donors and donations are publicly acknowledged
and accounted for on the HBD web page. THank you

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

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The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright
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cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to
req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
and Spencer Thomas

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 12:31:45 -0400
From: Tom Puskar <tpuskar at optonline.net>
Subject: Flat beer

I've been having a round of flat beers and can't figure out why. My latest
is a Belgian Dubbel which doesn't seem to be carbonating. Its been in the
bottle for 2 weeks. Am I being impatient?

The one before that was an IPA sort of beer and it is flat too. Its been in
the bottle for about 6 weeks. The fermentation on this one was a bit
strange and it may never carbonate but the Dubbel went perfect.

The starting OG was about 1.07 and it finished at about 101. It spent about
10 days in the primary and about two weeks in the secondary. When I racked
it to the bottling bucket it was crystal clear and tastes great--but its
flat! I hear a bit of a "pfft" when I open it but no detectable
carbonation.

I boil my bottle caps and use a bench type capper. I prime with a packet (5
oz) of corn sugar which I also boiled and cooled before adding it to the
bottling bucket. I sanitize my bottles with bleach and rinse thoroughly so
I don't think residual bleach is the problem I bottled a few bottles in
Grolsch bottles to see if maybe I'm being too hard on the stoppers and
haven't opened it yet.

I'm not a novice and have successfully brewed close to 50 batches over the
past 12 years. I did take a break for a few years as I worked out a medical
issue and just started brewing again about 18 months ago. Have I forgotten
something obvious?

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Tom in Howell, NJ

------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5602, 09/07/09
*************************************
-------

Homebrew Digest #5601 (September 04, 2009)

HOMEBREW Digest #5601 Fri 04 September 2009

FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org

***************************************************************
TODAY'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

Sponsor The Home Brew Digest!
Visit http://www.hbd.org/sponsorhbd.shtml to learn how

Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a
501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton Township, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
or more will be provided with receipts. SPONSORSHIPS of any
amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a business expense. Please consult with your
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************

Contents:
RE: Flavor Hops ("RJ")
"Aroma" vs "Flavor" hops ("Spencer W. Thomas")

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* The HBD Logo Store is now open! *
* http://www.hbd.org/store.html *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
meet its meager operating expenses of approximately $3400
per year. If less than half of those currently directly
subscribed to the HBD sent in a mere $5.00, the HBD would
be able to easily meet its annual expenses, with room to
spare for next year. Please consider it.

As always, donors and donations are publicly acknowledged
and accounted for on the HBD web page. THank you

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
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HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

LOOKING TO BUY OR SELL USED EQUIPMENT? Please do not post about it here. Go
instead to http://homebrewfleamarket.com and post a free ad there.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright
HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK
before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content
cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to
req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
and Spencer Thomas

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 06:11:52 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsup at metrocast.net>
Subject: RE: Flavor Hops

Matt in Oregon writes:
What the heck are "flavor hops", anyway?

Well Matt - all this really means is what point the hops are put into the
kettle...

Bittering extracts best at 45+ min of Boil (some flavor, little aroma)

Fuller flavors between 15 and 45 min (some bittering and some aroma)
more/less depending on time factor

Aroma scents between 0 and 15 min (virutually no bittering, some flavor)

FWH (1st Wort Hops) added well before the kettle boils tends to add a
"higher" flavor note vs bittering,
even though they are there for the full boil.

Dry Hoping adds flavor and aroma, but the extraction here is by dissolution
by the alcohol rather than boiling
liquid extraction.

I've heard that some brewers add hops to the lauter tun - I can only assume
(since I have no direct experience, that)
this is similar to FWH is extraction profile.

Also, you'll find that although all hops could be used for flavor, generally
the noble &/or milder
profile hops are best used for this.

Happy Brewing!
Olde Phenomian

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 10:56:03 -0400
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <hbd at spencerwthomas.com>
Subject: "Aroma" vs "Flavor" hops

There are lots of different components in hops that produce aroma and
flavor. Yes, except for the basic "tastes", these are all detected by
our noses. Why, then, do we call some "aroma" and some "flavor"?

As I understand it, the difference is in whether a particular aromatic
compound is released into the air in detectable amounts, or whether it
requires the warmth of our mouth to cause it to be released. Thus,
volatile aromatic compounds (those that go into the air in significant
amounts at the beer and air temperature) are considered part of the
"aroma", while others that are only volatized in our mouths are
considered part of the "flavor."

Boiling tends to drive off the volatile "aroma" compounds more rapidly
than the non-volatile "flavor" compounds. This is where the distinction
comes in.

=Spencer in Ann Arbor

------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5601, 09/04/09
*************************************
-------

Homebrew Digest #5600 (September 03, 2009)

HOMEBREW Digest #5600 Thu 03 September 2009

FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org

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Contents:
Re: Does dry hopping add flavor? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] ("Williams, Rowan")
fresh hops (Chris Williams)
RE: Does dry hopping add flavor? (Matt Wallace)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 14:37:54 +1000
From: "Williams, Rowan" <Rowan.Williams at ag.gov.au>
Subject: Re: Does dry hopping add flavor? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

Hi Jim,
Dry hopping certainly does add flavour. IMO, certain hops are better suited to this task than others.

A favourite dry hop I like to use in my APA's is Simcoe. I use large sanitised stainless steel teaballs / herb holders and drop them in the keg with the desired quantity of dry hops when I keg the beer to give me a fresh hop flavour hit. More a "depthcharge" than a "torpedo" to pinch a Sierra Nevada phrase!!

I find this an easy way to make use of my home grown hops - no need to try to guess their bittering potential when you use them for flavouring and aroma!

Cheers,
Rowan Williams
Canberra Brewers Club, Australia

[9588.6, 261.5] AR (statute miles)
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 23:03:00 -0700
From: Chris Williams <chwilliams at gmail.com>
Subject: fresh hops

couple of things to share... first, found this at
http://www.probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14949

"""
Hop Harvest is well under way, unfortunately the "long" market
conditions for Willamettes and the fair yield puts us in a unique
position. We have picked all the Willamette's we need to fulfill our
obligations but still have 30 acres on trellis. We have decided to
offer these fresh hops to Brewers in our area.

That's Right, Fresh Hops, No Charge, You Pick.

For details contact
Roy Farms
Moxee, WA
509-452-3494
"""

second, picked up some fresh Cascade from Hop Union in Yakima today,
they're selling directly to homebrewers and they said they'll have
more varieties next week. they're _really_ wet

Disclaimer: i'm not associated with either of these organizations in
any way, shape, or form, just a Northwest homebrewer with a itch for
fresh hops :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 09:28:27 -0700
From: Matt Wallace <dubious.chewy at gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Does dry hopping add flavor?

We've got 5 tastes: salty, sweet, sour, savory/umami, and most
important for this discussion, bitter. It's my understanding that
everything else is. in fact, aroma. Flavor=taste+aromatics. So,
yeah, dry hops add flavor, because they change the taste+aromatics
equation. But, I don't think they add much in the way of bitterness.
(Here's where my expertise ends, though. It's my very limited
understanding that the various hop acids need to be isomerized to add
bitterness, and that doesn't really happen sitting around in beer at
room/fridge temp)

Ok, so this raises a question I've had in the back of my mind for a
bit. What the heck are "flavor hops", anyway? So many recipes call
for a 15 minute "flavor hop" addition. Is it anyone's experience that
you actually get a different/improved character from this practice, vs
more hops at the start of the boil and more hops at flameout or in
secondary? Undoubtedly, this question has been hashed out on the HBD
before, but I wonder if there's some fun in having the discussion.

Matt in Oregon

------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5600, 09/03/09
*************************************
-------

Homebrew Digest #5599 (September 02, 2009)

HOMEBREW Digest #5599 Wed 02 September 2009

FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org

***************************************************************
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or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
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amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
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***************************************************************

Contents:
Nottingham yeast batch ("Lemcke Keith")

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* The HBD Logo Store is now open! *
* http://www.hbd.org/store.html *
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* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
meet its meager operating expenses of approximately $3400
per year. If less than half of those currently directly
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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
and Spencer Thomas

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 14:44:54 -0400
From: "Lemcke Keith" <klemcke at siebelinstitute.com>
Subject: Nottingham yeast batch

We have done some internal quality checks that have shown that a higher
than normal percentage of Nottingham yeast in 11 gram sachet packs from
batch #1081140118V (expiration date of Jan. 2011) exhibit slow
fermentation characteristics. While this is not affecting the majority
of packages from this batch, as a safeguard we would like to replace
sachets of this batch of Nottingham with new inventory from a different
batch. If you have any Nottingham yeast with this batch number, please
return it by mail to:

Lallemand Inc.
Attn: Marie Coppet
6100 Royalmount
Montreal, QC, Canada
H4P 2R2

We will replace each sachet sent along with extra sachets to compensate
you for postage costs. We apologize for any inconvenience and thank you
for your support. Should you have any questions, please contact our
Montreal order desk by e-mail at homebrewing at lallemand.com .

Keith Lemcke

Danstar Yeast Sales

------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5599, 09/02/09
*************************************
-------

Homebrew Digest #5598 (September 01, 2009)

HOMEBREW Digest #5598 Tue 01 September 2009

FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org

***************************************************************
TODAY'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

Sponsor The Home Brew Digest!
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501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton Township, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
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amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a business expense. Please consult with your
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************

Contents:
RO Water Treatment/Lagering Temps. ("A. J. deLange")
Re: Opinion on yeast? (S-23 temp) (Calvin Perilloux)
Re: Opinion on yeast? (stencil)
RE: Does dry hopping add flavor? ("David Houseman")

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* The HBD Logo Store is now open! *
* http://www.hbd.org/store.html *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
meet its meager operating expenses of approximately $3400
per year. If less than half of those currently directly
subscribed to the HBD sent in a mere $5.00, the HBD would
be able to easily meet its annual expenses, with room to
spare for next year. Please consider it.

As always, donors and donations are publicly acknowledged
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Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

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The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright
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before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content
cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to
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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
and Spencer Thomas

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 23:38:47 -0400
From: "A. J. deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: RO Water Treatment/Lagering Temps.

There are, unfortunately, no simple answers with regard to how to tailor
water for brewing because there are so many variables. It was the trial
and error efforts made by the brewers of history in trying to produce
decent beer from the water that they had available that produced the
diversity of beer styles we enjoy today.

While it is true that RO units do not remove all ions equally well (for
example the GE unit I have gets more than 99% of magnesium ions but only
92% of bicarbonatae) it is generally safe to start with the assumption
that the water is ion free unless there is an inordinate amount of some
ion present in the supply. Anaheim water will have alkalinity of
between 100 and 200 ppm as CaCO3 depending on which of its sources it is
drawing from and/or how it is blending from its sources. At worst you
could expect the alkalinity of your RO water, therefore, to be 20 ppm as
CaCO3. While this is not 0 it is a modest level.

Simply add the salts to the water. There is no need to use CO2 (or other
acid) unless sodium bicarbonate or calcium carbonate (chalk) is being
added and the situations where you would want or need to do that are few
and far between. As a general rule of thumb for starting out you could
try adding 1 tsp calcium chloride (dihydrate - the kind sold at your
local HBS) and 2 tsp gypsum (also sold at LHBS's) and a half tsp of
epsom salts (readily available from merchants which if I describe them
by the usual name given to their establishments will cause my post to
be rejected) to 5 gallons of RO water and see how you like the result.
If the hazes you had been observing were caused by insufficient calcium
in the past this blend should take care of that. But haze is sometimes
protein haze so use a protein rest (I know, that's not considered
necessary any more but I know what happens to me when I skip it at least
when I use Maris Otter).

If you want recipes for various waters I still have some posted at
www.wetnewf.org. You can use these as a starting point for more detailed
treatments. Some of these do call for the use of carbonate and
bicarbonate and therefore sparging with CO2. Don't undertake that
elaborate process unless you really want to create the water of e.g.
Burton. In most cases you can skip the carbonate/bicarbonate and just
use the other salts.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Lager yeasts like cold. The colder you can operate them the cleaner the
beer will be but there are limits. I try to get the temp down as fast as
I can to around 48 but as wort exits my chiller at around 55 and I pitch
inline obviously the yeast are exposed to the wort for some time at that
temperature. It's my understanding that megalagerbrewers chill to 42 and
pitch at that temperature allowing the temperature in the fermenter to
rise to 48 before they cut the cooling in.

I will note that I have had trouble getting certain strains from a
certain manufacturer to perform at lower temperatures and have had to
operate them in the mid 50's.

Once fermentation is complete (i.e. specific gravity doesn't drop
noticeably over a period of a couple of days) then lagering at as close
to freezing as you can get the beer is the order of the day.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 06:31:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Opinion on yeast? (S-23 temp)

Josh,

If you're talking about fermenting with S-23 at room temperature
for a week, you'll end up with a fruity ale-type beer, not a Bock
at all. It's bad enough to go a full day or so at high temps,
but a week? I've brewed lighter lagers at varying pitching
temperatures (due to commercial considerations), and using the
same lager yeast the cold-pitched ones are cleaner and superior
to the ones pitched at 60-62 F. I haven't done that with S-23
specifically, but my educated guess is that it would act similarly.

I've used S-23 with good results in the 50-55 F range.
In my experience, it slows down a LOT if you take it much
under 50 F. I'd never use it at 70 F, not even pitching
temperature. (I pitch lagers in the mid to upper 40's if
possible, letting the fermenting wort then warm to primary
fermentation temperature of 50 F or so.)

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 12:44:11 -0400
From: stencil <etcs.ret at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Opinion on yeast?

On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 02:22:31 -0400,
in Homebrew Digest #5597 (August 31, 2009)
Josh Knarr wrote:

>
>
>Fermentation temp for lagering - start out at room temp for a week
>then put it in the freezer? Drop the temp to "as low as it will go"?

Try to get to the intended ferment temperature at or even before
pitching time.
The whole rationale is that lager yeast are bred to function at
lower temperatures and when they operate in warmer environments they
produce ale-like compounds. Let them play unsupervised for a few
days at warm temps and you will have well-chilled ale. After a few
weeks of cold lagering they might re-ingest those flavors, but maybe
not.

Recognize that, external controller or no, the freezer still is a
freezer and will try to get its contents down to 0F or below as soon
as the controller applies power to it. When you get to your target
temp (50F or whatever) the controller will cut power to the freezer
- but the interior walls still will be at a subzero temperature.
Therefore try to deploy the fermenter as far from the walls as
possible and ensure that the remaining volume of the freezer is well
loaded with water jugs, bacon, and filled kegs as is practical.
Likewise position the sensor probe as far from the walls and as
close to the fermenter as you can. If you opted for the Johnson
controller that uses a pneumatic bulb and copper tube, beware of
too-frequent flexing of the tube, which will lead to brittling and
cracking.

>since the Palmer book uses the 45F to 55F consistently to lager while
>the Saflager packet has a much higher range on it.
>
The yeast manufacturer's advice takes precedence - unless someone
advises you to treat a specific brand or type, differently.

gds, stencil

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:51:14 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman at verizon.net>
Subject: RE: Does dry hopping add flavor?

Jim,

So what does brewing for yourself versus for competition have to do with
concern for aroma. Frankly whatever the reason to brew, if it's not going
to be a good beer then what's the point? And to me aroma is a key component
of any beer. Not that high hop aroma should be present on every beer or
style but where it's appropriate I want great hop aroma whether it's just
for me, a guest or to enter in competition.

Dry hopping does affect most aroma, although I do pick up some additional
hop flavor. Or it could be just the mixing of senses. Hop aroma is
largely contributed by late hop additions in the kettle. Add hops in the
range of 20 to 5 minutes to go in the boil. Isomerizing hops extracts hop
acids for bittering. Hop flavor is extracted from hop resins and oils. So
yes, you can get achieve good hop flavor without dry hopping.

David Houseman

------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5598, 09/01/09
*************************************
-------