FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
sparge arm ("Darrell G. Leavitt")
RE: Sparge Arms ("David Houseman")
Starsan 5.2 ("A.J deLange")
Re: Scottsdale AZ brewpubs? (John Stewart)
Using Five Star 5.2 pH stabilizer with other water treatment (Craig Agnor)
Re: Five Star pH Stabilizer (Calvin Perilloux)
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Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 07:12:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Darrell G. Leavitt" <leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu>
Subject: sparge arm
Rowan;
You have most likely considered this, but how much space is under your
false bottom, and could that be a factor in your efficiency? I am not
sure what a B3 is, but I use a Polarware 10 gallon pot, and there is
nearly a gallon under the false bottom. I regularly get around 78%
efficiency, but at times when I drain the bottom, the efficiency goes up
a bit. But then I wonder if it is better to not get all the little crap
that sometimes comes with the last runnings when I do this?
Good morning.
Darrell
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 08:02:59 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman at verizon.net>
Subject: RE: Sparge Arms
Rowan,
I did start out using a sparge are, the one from Listermann I believe. But
then came to two realizations. One was that I wanted to keep about an inch
of water on top of the grain bed to (1) maintain uniform flow and (2) float
the entire grain bed. The second was that I wanted to minimize oxidation
and spraying water is certainly more likely to absorb O2 than a simple flow.
So I stopped using a sparge arm in favor of simply placing a perforated
pizza pan on the grain bed and then laying a hose on the and just running
sparge water onto it. The pizza pan with holes keeps the water from
channeling into the grain bed. I keep 1 to 2 inches of water on the grain
bed throughout the sparge. When I new sculpture from MoreBeer it came with
a copper ring that drips sparge water, or recirculated wort, onto the grain
bed in a circular pattern. Again no spraying, but more gently laying the
wort/water onto the bed across the entire top of the bed. So I think you
were on the right track to start with. Maybe instead of aluminum foil, make
a ring to drip onto the grain bed more gently. BTW, put the holes in the
ring on the top, not the bottom and keep it level and the wort/water will be
uniform.
David Houseman
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:48:22 -0400
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Starsan 5.2
Starsan 5.2 is, apparently, a classic phosphate buffer. A bufffer is a
mixture of salts representing different levels of deprotonation of a
polyprotic acid and the acid itself. Phosphoric acid, H3(PO4) is an
example with 3 protons i.e. hydrogen ions to give up. The Law of Mass
Action demands that the ratios of the concentrations of the ions in
the solution be (ideally dilute solution approximation)
r1 = 10^(pH - pK1) for the ratio of monobasic phosphate (H2(PO4)-) to
phosphoric acid (H3(PO4)), r2 = 10^(pH-pK2) for the ratio of dibasic
(H(PO4)--) to monobasic and r3 = 10^ (pH-pK3) for the ratio of
tribasic (PO4)---) to dibasic where the pK's are minus the logs of the
dissociation constants for the three dissociation steps: H3(PO4) ---> H
+ + H2(PO4)- and so on. pK1 = 2.1; pK2 = 7.2 and pK3 = 12.44 for
phosphoric acid. When pH = pK the corresponding r = 1 and the two
species are present in equal concentration. Now if you have x moles/L
phosphoric acid in a solution at a given pH there must be r1*x of
monobasic phosphate, r2*r1*x of dibasic and r3*r2*r1 of tribasic for a
total of P=x*(1 + r1 + r1*r2 + r1*r2*r3). The fraction of the total
which is phosphoric is thus clearly f1 = 1/(1 + r1 + r1*r2 +
r1*r2*r3), the fraction which is monbasic f2 = r1*f1, the fraction
which is dibasic f3 = r2*f2 = r1*r2*f1 and the fraction which is
tribasic f4 = r3*f2 = r1*r2*r3*f1. At pH 5.2 phosphoric acid accounts
for 0.08% of the total (PO4), mononbasic phosphate for 98.93%, dibasic
phosphate for 1% and tribasic phosphate for so little as to be
unappreciable (which is a good thing in this case because if it
weren't it would strip all the calcium out of your water).
To make a buffer at pH 5.2 we would set up the ratios by dissolving
phosphoric acid in sufficient quantity to provide 0.08% of the total
moles of phosphate, monobasic sodium or potassium phosphate in
sufficient quantity to provide 98.93% of the moles of phosphate and
dibasic sodium or potassium phosphate in sufficient quantity to
provide 1 % of the moles of phosphate in distilled water and expect
the pH of the mix to be pretty close to 5.2. In practice we'd probably
skip the phosphoric acid and just use the salts (as I believe 5.2 is a
powder I'm sure there is no acid in it). The total amount of salts
required depends on the required "buffering capacity" i.e. how much
acid or base needs to be absorbed. As mash pH is generally in the 5's
anyway the buffer doesn't have to pull pH very far but if the
alkalinity of the liquor is high more buffer may be needed - it is
acting as a source of protons to reduce pH. A point of interest WRT
this is that the buffering capacity of salt mixtures is highest near
their pKs and worst half way in between them. pH 4.66 is half way
between pK1 and pK2 thus this phosphate buffer (which I'm only
assuming is what it is because that's what it says it is in the
WIlliams catalogue) is working fairly close to the least effective pH
for phosphate. From this point of view citrate, with pK2 = 4.77 might
be a better choice but phosphate is more flavor neutral.
The second part of your question is as to how one does mineral content
adjustments. If one is willing to make a lot of simplifying
assumptions about water chemistry this can be done with a relatively
simple Excel spreadsheet of which there are several out there. In
general you specify the parameters of the available water (you must
have an analysis) in one part of the spreadsheet and amounts of salts
to be added in another. The spreadsheet effectively adds the ions you
add as salts to the ions present in the source water and presents you
with the results which you then compare to the desired ion content
profile. This works well when neither calcium carbonate, sodium
bicarbonate or carbon dioxide are part of your formulation process and
if you do not acidify with lactic, citric, phosphoric etc acids. i.e.
it is fine for gypsum, calcium chloride, sodium chloride additions
and dilutions. To synthesize waters with high temporary hardness it is
usually necessary to add calcium and/or sodium carbonate which
requires addition of acid in some form (carbonic, i.e. carbon dioxide,
is mother nature's and my own preferred form). The simple spreadsheets
ignore this important aspect of brewing water chemistry. I offer my
own spreadsheet at www.wetnewf.org as an example of a spreadsheet
that takes acid/base requirements into account, allows the use of any
acid (not, I hope, that someone would contemplate using, for example,
Prussic acid) for pH adjustment, recognizes that brewing waters are
not "ideally dilute" solutions, considers temperature and will even
design the phosphate buffer of the first part of your question. The
downside is, of course, that it makes more demands on the user than
the simpler spreadsheets. It comes with extensive instructions and you
may want to have a look.
A.J.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 16:07:16 -0500
From: John Stewart <john at johnstewart.com>
Subject: Re: Scottsdale AZ brewpubs?
> I may be travelling to Scottsdale AZ in May/June this year and was
> hoping somebody may be able to recommend local brewpubs for a
> thirsty traveller!!
I've been to the area a few times. I'd be interested to know the answer, too.
I'm from Madison, WI, and we have a fine assortment of brewers in the
neighborhood. Lake Louie is what I was drinking tonight, their Kiss
the Lips IPA. My favorite IPA, however, is the other side of Lake
Mendota from them (and me), Hopalicious from Ale Asylum. Of course the
Great Dane provides an assortment of decent brews in 4 locations in
town, too (and sponsors the ultimate frisbee league in Madison - 2
free pitchers per team after every game!).
Anyway, I visited Tempe, AZ for work last year and I was sorely
disappointed with the local brew selections at dinnertime. Fat Tire if
I was lucky. Often not.
I complained to a colleague, who lives in the valley (a vast, vast
valley of suburbia). He said "oh, no, we've got a great local brew
pub."
On my last night there, we went, and I had the sampler of their beer.
I admit, it wasn't terrible... but only a minority of beers were
anything above "okay".
I don't remember the name of the brew pub, but I'll tell you what I do
remember: On my layover in the Minneapolis airport, as I was humping
my bag from one end of the airport to the other, covered in sweat
trying to make my connection, I whizzed by... the same brew pub.
Like everything else in the Valley of the Phoenix, it was a chain.
Good luck and let me know. I have to go back next weekend.
johnS
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 16:08:03 +0100
From: Craig Agnor <cragnor at gmail.com>
Subject: Using Five Star 5.2 pH stabilizer with other water treatment
Hello,
I'm an all grain homebrewer of many years that has recently moved to an area
with high alkalinity water (see below for the report) and have a question
about using Five Star 5.2 in conjunction with other water treatments.
I've recently started using Five Star 5.2 product and been immediately
impressed with how it locks in the pH and has raised my efficiency.
However, I've found the bitterness in my time tested IPA recipe to be quite
harsh, when brewed at the new house (and with the new water supply).
I suspect that this has nothing to do with using 5.2 and in doing some
reading, the homebrewing literature (Daniels, Palmer) suggests that high
alkalinity water can lead to a harshness in beers with a lot of hop flavor
and bitterness.
Other literature suggests adding various water salts (epsom salts, gypsum,
table salt) to the dry grains, both to adjust the residual alkalinity and to
achieve a desired flavor balance in the beer (Palmer). So, it appears that
I may need to do additional water treatment to improve the quality of the
beers I'm making with this water supply.
Finally, my question. If I've decided to adjust my water using a
combination of water salts and carbonate reduction (either by acid addition
or adding distilled water) when and how should 5.2 be added? Note that most
literature I've found on adding salts suggest adding the dry salts to the
dry grain, then mixing the water for mashing into the grain/water salts.
Any suggestions or advice on how to use 5.2 in conjunction with more
conventional water treatment/adjustment would be appreciated.
Thanks for your help.
Best,
Craig
Loughton, Essex, UK
PS Here's my water profile.
Water for IG10 4BS 23/01/2009
Cations: mean (min - max)
Chloride (Cl): 55.3 mg/l (51 - 61)
Alkalinity CaCO3: 212 mg/l (200 - 229)
Alkalinity HCO3: 258.5 mg/l (244 - 279)
Hardness CaCO3: 285.8 mg/l (281 - 290)
Sulphate (SO4): 55.2 (53.1 - 58.2)
Anions:
Calcium (Ca): 106.9 mg/l (102 - 111)
Magnesium (Mg): 5.4 mg/l (5.0 - 5.9)
Sodium (Na): 36.3 mg/l (34.3 - 40.9)
pH: 7.8 (7.5 - 8.2)
PPS I sent a similar inquiry to Five Star a week or so ago, but have not
heard back from them yet.
PPPS In the UK, there is a nice product available for reducing carbonate in
the brewing water from Brupaks. I believe it is a mixture of acids that
reduces bicarbonate while not throwing the water profile off terribly with
other ions. See the link below for more details (not sure if this is also
available in the states).
http://www.brupaks.com/water%20treatment.htm
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 10:36:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Five Star pH Stabilizer
My educated guess is that 5.2 Stabilizer is a phosphate buffer,
perhaps a specific mix of food grade (mono- and di-) sodium
and/or potassium phosphates. I see that A.J has a post pending,
and he probably has better information from memory than I can
do with an hour of research, perhaps including exactly how the
pK values of phosphate affect the mix of the salts in 5.2.
Now when you hear phosphate buffers, you might, if you're
not chemistry-literate, worry about "chemicals" in your beer,
but phosphates are common food additives and are actually
already present in food and needed for nutrition. (Malt
itself is about 1% phosphate.)
A tablespoon of 5.2 Stabilizer weighs 11 grams by my scale;
that's enough for a 5 gallon mix, as specified by Five Star
(the vendor). That's very roughly 0.6 grams of product per
liter of beer. I'll let someone else do the chemistry and
subsequent simple arithmetic to estimate the phosphorous
content, but a quick back-of-the-envelope calculations shows
it would be well within current dietary norms for phosphorous.
(Unless you drink several liters per day, every day, and then
you're obviously have total disregard for dietary norms anyway.)
There's a reasonably good book called "Phosphates in Food"
that shows some relevant information about phosphates, but
I don't have the $380+ for my own copy, so I can only read
snippets. Google can help a lot, though, if you want to
pursue this further and are of a technical bent.
Given enough research, you could probably in the end be able
to make your own buffer salts that are customised for your
own water and desired pH, so that you use only enough buffer
to prevent pH drift, and no more. Me, I find it easier to
just spend a few pennies and dump in the recommended tablespoon
of 5.2 Stabilizer if I feel concerned about mash pH.
Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5533, 03/29/09
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