Monday, June 30, 2008

Homebrew Digest #5358 (June 30, 2008)

HOMEBREW Digest #5358 Mon 30 June 2008


FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
Sourness/Bitterness Continued-- ("Michele Maatta")
"just when I think I'm out, they drag me back in again." ("Rob")
Hops bitterness ("A.J deLange")
Shops that still have hops ("Dave Larsen")
Limit of Attenuation (fermentability) experiment (Kai Troester)
Yeast Performance Versus Pressure ("Mark Prior")
Re: Fast Ferment Test (Kai Troester)
wheat ("Darrell G. Leavitt")
Re: Sour Bitter Perception (Mike Kilian)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:50:00 -0400
From: "Michele Maatta" <mrmaatta at gmail.com>
Subject: Sourness/Bitterness Continued--

I used a much less scientific method than fellow HBD posters, and this
has been an interesting thread of posts for me. Thanks to those folks
who have a more sound explanation than my own personal preferences. I
still read and learn, and enjoy despite not brewing-- I place my
knowledge critiquing the brewing skills of the local breweries.

Thanks to those who are always passing along great and valuable information!

Cheers!

Michele


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 04:11:33 -0500
From: "Rob" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: "just when I think I'm out, they drag me back in again."

Gump Checks In...

The mere mention of CLINI**** Makes my blood ferment!

Actually, the man I hold 2nd highest in regard as one of my "YEAST GOD's"
(SYNTAX, MY ASS!), only behind Clayton Cone, Tobias Fischborn....told me
years ago, as reported here in HBD, that he uses the dreaded CLINI**** in
his work.

And that was enough for me to have, only once mind you, issued a Public
Apology to Dave Burley.
Leave it to you b@$t@rds from the HB bloody D to remind me!

"just when I think I'm out, they drag me back in again."

Cheers!
Jethro (Glad to be Here) Gump


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:29:35 -0400
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Hops bitterness

RE:

>For me, it is the type of bitterness. There are beers that are
harshly bitter, and smoothly bitter. For example, harshly bitter hops
include the three C's: Cascade, Centennial and Columbus. Smoothly
bitter hops include most noble hops: Hallertau, Saaz, Fuggle, and the
like. I can't stand American IPAs, but I love Bohemian Pilsners.<

I thought I was the only one who felt this way. Nice to know that I'm
not alone! Even so life with Saaz at $3 an ounce - if you can get it -
is tough. I've found that Sterling works pretty well for bittering being
closer to the smooth side between rough and smooth. Bittered with Sterling
and finished with what Saaz I can get the Pils is pretty good.

A.J.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:08:15 -0700
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpu at gmail.com>
Subject: Shops that still have hops

I was in Seattle a couple of months ago. While there, a friend took
me to this little hole in the wall brew shop. It was tiny. Mostly
they had wine making supplies. However, I was totally surprised
because the shop had all the hops that were short in supply: Fuggle,
Saaz, Cascade, and the like. I'm guessing that they are last year's
crop (or older), so I do not know how much Alpha Acid degredation has
taken place. Regardless, if someone was looking for flavor or aroma
hops, it would be a good score. The shop was called Market Cellar
Winery. I just thought I'd mention it.

Dave
Tucson, AZ
http://hunahpu.blogspot.com/


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:20:49 -0400
From: Kai Troester <kai at braukaiser.com>
Subject: Limit of Attenuation (fermentability) experiment

A wile back I started a series of experiments designed to quantify the affects
that various mash parameters have on the fermentability of the resulting wort
and the brewhouse efficiency in a single infusion mash. Mostly because much of
the literature, especially literature targeted at homebrewers, that I read so
far provides qualitative statements and doesn't go as far as how much change
can be expected when changing a particular mash parameter.

The experiments were micro mashes in a thermos bottle followed by a short boil
and fermentation with dry bread yeast at a high pitching rate. The latter was
intended to remove fermentation variations by basically creating a fast
ferment test environment.

So far I have the results for temperature and pH. The series for temperature
matches the results mentioned in Palmer's How To Brew. The curve seems to be
shiftet a little bit towards higher temps, which I contribute to the
temperature
loss (about 2 C over the 60 min) in the mash. I'm planning to change the
temperature axis from beginning mash temp to average mash temp to
mitigate this
problem. Interesting was the - 4% attenuation / C slope for temperatures
higher than the optimal attenuation temp. I wonder if that relationship
actually carries over into practical mashing if mash-out and/or heating of the
wort is added. Note, that these results are for limit of attenuation. The
mashing temp also affects the ratios of fermentable sugars (glucose, maltose
and maltotriose) which in turn will affect the yeasts ability to come close to
the limit of attenuation in a realistic fermentation environment.

The pH data matches data points I found in the literature, but I didn't see as
big of a brewhouse efficiency drop as I expected based on efficiency boost
numbers that homebrewers report when they start correcting their mash pH. I'm
going to run some experiments with tap water, which has much more
minerals than
the
reverse osmosis water that I used so far. An important result was the
attenuation hit that a sub 5.0 mash gets, especially in the light of a recent
BYO article where H. Dornbusch suggested that an authentic Pilsner needs to be
mashed well below 5.0. At these pH levels I also saw conversion problems
(stronger iodine test).

In the future I plan to evaluate mill gap spacing, mash time and mash
thickness.

All the data and more information regarding this work can be found here:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Limit_of_attenuation_experiment

I'm interested in data, from both commercial and home brewing, that
supports or contradicts my findings, as well as comments and concerns
about the
methods I used or conclusions that were drawn.

Kai


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:22:04 -0400
From: "Mark Prior" <priormc at gmail.com>
Subject: Yeast Performance Versus Pressure

I'm fermenting 5 gallons of IPA in a 10 gallon keg and would like to
naturally carbonate the beer. I'm at 1.021 now and expect to finish
around 1.016 - 1.018. I'm curious if anyone can comment on the impacts
of pressure on yeast. I understand that increased pressure can kill
the yeast and increase ester production. I'm using WLP51 - White Labs
California V yeast. I don't recall at what PSI these effects occur.
Does anyone know? Are there any other effects that I should be
concerned with? Note: I have a variable pressure relief valve connect
to this keg right now. It is set to release the pressure at 16 PSI,
for the moment.

Thanks for your input.


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:19:08 -0400
From: Kai Troester <kai at braukaiser.com>
Subject: Re: Fast Ferment Test

> Your "fast" fermentation test is better known both to amateurs and in
> the English Sci literature as a FORCED fermentation test (aka FFT) and
> has been discussed on this forum for well over a decade.

I used to use fast and forced ferment test interchangeably in the past, but
then I remembered that some call a test to test the sanitation level
buy waiting how long it takes to ferment w/o the addition of yeast
forced ferment
test. And since this test is known as Schnellgaerprobe in German brewing,
fast or quick ferment test seemed more appropriate.

> Forced fermentation tests are mentioned in George Fix's last two brewing
> books, including an explanation in AoBT. It's mentioned in John
> Palmer's "How to Brew". It was certainly mentioned liberally in the
> (defunct) "Brewing Techniques" magazine and I would be surprised if it
> doesn't appear on an irregular basis in the less technical Zymurgy.

I must have missed this. Mostly because little emphasis was put on this test.

> The simple FFT described by Kunze requires adding 3gm of dried yeast to
> 0.3L of filtered work and this is allowed to ferment for taking
> hydrometer readings from day 2 until stable at a temperature controlled
> 25C/77F.

I got the fast ferment test from Narziss, another German brewing author, who
doesn't list as elaborate method as Kunze. He only states that wort is pitched
with a very high pitching rate and fermented warm. And most of your dislike of
this test is based on the rather complicated method. I don't need that
much wort
to perform the test. As a matter of fact I only need enough to fill a
hydrometer
once. Some brewers I know use even less since they work with refractometers.

As outlined in the posted article, I resuspend the to be pitched yeast slurry
with wort and then leave some behind in the propagation vessel. After
adding some more wort I shake it well and place it in a warm spot. The
exact temp doesn't matter much. But above 70F is better. After that I
just give it time.
There is no daily measuring. If that would be necessary I would have
dissed the
test already. Once the beer lays completely flat, no CO2 comes out of
solution and and the yeast settled, generally after 3-5 days, I take
the only hydrometer reading I need to take. The sample is degassed at
that point and I'm using a more precise 0.990 - 1.020 hydrometer. The
total amount of work needed is 5 min max.

The idea begind this simplified method for the fast ferment test is
simple. The
FFT is designed to show the limit of attenuation of the wort. This means that
there is a limit how far the yeast can attenuate regardless of temperature and
pitching rate/yeast health. The relationship between attenuation and temp/cell
count is likely to be asymptotic. 50F may get you 80%, 60F may get you
83%, 70F may get you 84% and 75 may get you 84.5% with the true limit
of attenuation being 85% for that wort. Based on that I conclude that
as long as the temp is high enough, the result of the FFT will be
within the limit of attenuation with
a fairly small error. The same is assumed to be true for pitching rate and
I plan to show that with some experiments. I'm not sure yet, how big
the differences between various yeast strains are, though.

> Lab ones (and you'll need a pair) are ~$25/ea and
> gain you 0.5dSG resolution but probably less accuracy.

Using the hydrometer that I have, I get an accuracy of about 0.2
Plato, which is good enough for what I'm looking for. And if there is
a systematic error in
my measurements, it will be applied to FFT and actual beer readings.

> a modestly experienced HBer has a fairly good
> idea what sort of AA% to expect, say within 2 or possibly 3 degreesSG,
> or ~5%AA.

Estimation is good, but knowing is better

> For HB (and medicine too) one should never perform a test that does not
> result in an actionable outcome (not for beer production anyway -
> curiosity is another matter).

I have taken action based on the FFT outcome many times:

- account for residual extract when bottling. Especially when I'm
rousing a beer
and want to get it to cold conditioning faster. With the FFT I only need to
make sure that there won't be to much extract left and that
diacetyl has been
remduced.
- start lagering when the extract level is close to the level targeted
based on
FFT and style
- fix a overly sweet beer by adding more yeast and raising its temp. I
have done
that a few times b/c I didn't get the expetcted yeast performance during
lagering and b/c of the FFT I knew that the cause for that sweetness were
fermentable sugars.
- priming with only residual extract. Called Gruenschlauchen (green
racking) in
German brewing and I like to use that when I have to bottle a large
number of
smaller batches (experimental batches). I just pay attention to the current
extract of the beer and when it is low enough for adequate
carbonation I fill
the beer into bottles w/o the use of a bottling bucket or priming sugar.
It also works well for Weissbier since the lager amount of yeast in
the bottle
is not as much of a problem.

> So I'm not a fanboy for FFTs.

I see. But I wanted to show that many of your objections to that test
were based
on an overly complicated method of performing it.

> if you suspect but cannot detect a defective ferment one can always pull
> a sample from the fermenter and re-pitch dried yeast and try an FFT at
> that point.

I still have to show that this actually works or if rehydrating yeast in an
alcohol solution deprived of many nutrients actually gives the same results as
a FFT would have given. I tried this with my Maibock, but when the beer was
fermented with dry yeast, it didn't go as low as the fast ferment test
did. But
in the past I have seen differences between a FFT done with the main yeast and
bread yeast.

> Let me suggest an alternative. Cl*nitest (Clinitest).

I'll have to look into this test.

Kai


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:14:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Darrell G. Leavitt" <leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu>
Subject: wheat

What do you figure is the essential difference between Torrified Wheat and
Malted Wheat in terms of head retention and such?

I recently made a Colonial Ale (Blue Spruce tips), and there is so much
going on that I am unable to determine the effect of 1 lb of Torrified
wheat in this recipe:
2 lb Vienna Malt
4 lb Pale Malt
2 lb Pale Crystal
1 lb Torrified Wheat
1 lb CaraAmber

2 step infusion (148, then 155 F)

og was 1.055
fg was 1.012
%abv was about 5.7%

Several large handsfull of fresh Blue Spruce tips in the boil, most near
the end. Oak Chips in the fermenter.
A few cluster hops at the beginning of a 2 hour boil.

Way too much going on in this brew for me to see what the Torrified Wheat
has done.
Darrell

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:41:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mike Kilian <mikekilian1947 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Sour Bitter Perception

S said:

<If you find sourness (acidity or tartness) and bitterness
<so unpalatable, that you cannot enjoy a good coffee,
<dark chocolate, a hoppy beer or cannot tolerate a granny
<<smith apple or lemonade - then I pity you. You dislike
<not merely some specific aroma among many thousands
<sensible, but 2/5th of the sensations your tongue is
<capable of perceiving and you are doomed to live in
<the underworld of Bland.

I was hoping that my point was that there are some areas
of beer bitterness that I can't appreciate. I can and
do judge those styles I know what the style needs to be
on point, but it's not what I'd brew at home. Heavily
hopped beers are easy to produce. Balanced beers are
a bit more difficult, IMHO. Again, while I can
appreciate a real Lambic, I don't feel any need to
purchase or brew the style.

I enjoy sauerkraut and a several cups of good dark
coffee (I tend to get the dark roast whole bean and
buy 5 lbs at time). I also love dark chocolate.
However I do like sweetener with my tea. There are
a number of foods that I perceive as sour that I can
and do appreciate. A nice vinegar based BBQ sauce
on pulled pork is wonderful.

So, I don't feel "doomed" and I don't feel that I
need pity.

Dave said

<For me, it is the type of bitterness. There are
<beers that are harshly bitter, and smoothly bitter.
<For example, harshly bitter hops include the three
<C's: Cascade, Centennial and Columbus. Smoothly
<bitter hops include most noble hops: Hallertau,
<Saaz, Fuggle, and the like. I can't stand American
<IPAs, but I love Bohemian Pilsners.

Dave, from my brewing past, I agree totally.
"Hammering" bitterness is simply a brewing process
fault. A good Bohemian Pilsner while similar in IBU's
to an American IPA is a better bitterness to my tastes.
But so are many Bitter's and ESB's, which I brew quite
often.

I hope my point is understood -- there are different
tastes for different people and I was trying to
understand if there was something other than nurture
that caused tendencies.

Mike



------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5358, 06/30/08
*************************************
-------

Sunday, June 29, 2008

Homebrew Digest #5357 (June 29, 2008)

HOMEBREW Digest #5357 Sun 29 June 2008


FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

Your Business Name Here
Visit http://hbd.org "Sponsor the HBD" to find out how!

Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a
501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton Township, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
or more will be provided with receipts. SPONSORSHIPS of any
amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a bsuiness expense. Please consult with your
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************


Contents:
Sourness/Bitterness Test ("Michele Maatta")
Re: Water Chemistry - I'm too hard... (UNCLASSIFIED) ("Dave Larsen")
Hard water ("A.J deLange")
Re: Water Chemistry - I'm too hard... (UNCLASSIFIED) (stencil)
BYO Magazine ("Dave Larsen")
Grain Mills ("Bob Sheck")
More stuff (-s)
Re: Sour Bitter Perception ("Dave Larsen")


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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*
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*
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* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

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instead to http://homebrewfleamarket.com and post a free ad there.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright
HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK
before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content
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More information is available by sending the word "info" to
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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
and Spencer Thomas


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 11:02:53 -0400
From: "Michele Maatta" <mrmaatta at gmail.com>
Subject: Sourness/Bitterness Test

Thanks to Mike Kilian for reminding me of the genetics of the intensity of
taste of sour (and maybe bitter things as well). This had completely
slipped my mind, and I wondered why I didn't care for sour candies, plain
old vinegar things (I use balsamic for everything) and why even in summer, I
tend to gravitate toward more smoky, malty brews rather than the summery
hoppy brews.

The porch light came on when I read your post. I am not a genetic
professional , but I can recall the preferences of my folks-- Dad mild
mellow smooth-(ales, sweet wines). Mom sour, sharp (dry wines) highly tart
foods were her taste palette. I definitely followed Pops in that area-- I
wonder what the correlation in heritage Dad Finnish. Mom German/French.

I haven't brewed in a while as my residence is not set up to allow indoor or
outdoor brewing, but I still avidly read and enjoy. Now I understand why I
order what I do from my local Microbreweries and can embrace my preferred
flavors with a touch more understanding. I think you're onto something
there, Mike, and thanks for bringing it back to my attention.

Stands to reason, why I wasn't as fond of my dry-hopped and over hopped
beers while I brewed but fell in love with my smokey porters silkiness. I
do not dislike hops at all. On a hot day, I love a Hefe with those banana
undertones, or an Amber that has a grapefruity flavor. I just don't qualify
as a total Hop Head as I shun the bitterness. Nice to participate, and still
learn while in dormant brewing stage!

Cheers, Folks!!
Michele, a Michigander that can't brew at this time, but has wonderful
brew available locally :)


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 09:54:43 -0700
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpu at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Water Chemistry - I'm too hard... (UNCLASSIFIED)

> Here're the results of my un-softened water, taken from the outside hose
> bib:
>
> pH 7.43
>
> Ca 160 mg/L
> Mg 25 mg/L
> Na 19 mg/L
> Cl 46 mg/L
> K Not tested
> SO4 190 mg/L (prefer <150)
> HCO3 445 mg/L (OUCH! An order of magnitude higher than I'd like)
>
> Total Hardness 5.0 mmol/L
>
[Snip]
> Does anyone have any suggestions [besides giving up and buy my
> German/Belgium lagers from the local getrankemarkt]???

I am not water expert. However, just for fun, I plugged you water
into ProMash's water profiler. What I found is with dilution, you
can bring your water in line with Munich. Rather than using RO water
and starting from scratch, you could simply dilute your water by 60%
with ion free water. Doing that, you get the following, comparing it
to Munich:

Heidelberg Munich
Ca 64.0 76.0
Mg 10.0 18.0
Na 7.6 1.0
Cl 18.4 2.0
SO4 76.0 10.0
HCO3 178.0 152.0

Okay, your SO4 is a bit higher, but still in the range 50-150 for
normal bitterness in beers.

I think that dilution is the answer to your problems. I think that
you could do that without the big expense of an RO system. Just
buying a few gallons of distilled water won't break the budget for a
batch of beer.

Dave
Tucson, AZ (whose water is a lot like London's water)
http://hunahpu.blogspot.com/


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:54:40 -0400
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Hard water

RE: I hereby claim that Burton-on-Trent has nothin' on me!! I just got
the lab results back on my household water here in Heidelberg, Germany,
and I'm floored! Here're the results of my un-softened water, taken from
the outside hose bib:

pH 7.43

Ca 160 mg/L
Mg 25 mg/L
Na 19 mg/L
Cl 46 mg/L
K Not tested
SO4 190 mg/L (prefer <150)
HCO3 445 mg/L (OUCH! An order of magnitude higher than I'd like)

Total Hardness 5.0 mmol/L

Here are my additional calculations (using the lab results, but I'm no
chemist, so some caution is in order)

Total Dissolved Solids 885 mg/L

Carbonate Hardness 364.97 mg/L as CaCO3
Non-Carbonate Hardness 137.54 mg/L as CaCO3
TOTAL HARDNESS 502.51 mg/L as CaCO3


You may beat Burton slightly on alkalinity (you have 7.3 mmol/L while
most reports for burton run 6 - 6.5) but they top you on sulfates (450 -
820 mg/L) easily. Unfortunately they also top you on calcium hardness
with 13-17.5 mmol/L compared to your 8. So while Burton has residual
alkalinities around 0 to -1.5 mmol/L so they can brew Burton ales yours
is more like + 4.7 and you can't unless you get the calcium up to Burton
like levels and, as your sulfate is much lower than Burton's, you can do
that with gypsum all of which is fine if your goal is Burton style
ales. IOW it's not that your water is too hard. It isn't hard enough!

For other beers (e.g. lagers) you'll need to get the bicarb down by
dropping it out (boiling or lime treatment) or converting it to CO2 with
acid (from dark malt or a bottle). With 8 Ca + 2 Mg mmol/L hardness you
should be able to drop the carbonate down to about 1 mmol/L either by
heat or lime treatment and still have a couple mmol of hardness left
i.e. you should have water suitable of lager brewing.

From your post it sounds as if you are familiar with lime "split"
treatment. If not check Hubert Hanghofer's post at

www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/2540.html. He lays it out step by step.

Cheers,

A. J.


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 20:15:38 -0400
From: stencil <etcs.ret at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Water Chemistry - I'm too hard... (UNCLASSIFIED)

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 00:27:01 -0400,
in HOMEBREW Digest #5356
Michael Noah wrote:
> [ ... ]
>MY QUESTION: I'm trying to figure out whether I should try to "repair"
>my water, maybe by using slaked lime to remove the HCO3 (and strip away
>some of my Mg in the process),
> [ ... ] I
>don't know the German word for "slaked lime," so I'm sure I'll also have
>to go through more than just a few international hand motions in order
>to get my desires understood. [SMILE]
>
>
>
Use slaked lime; it's really not that big a thing. The
fundamental documents are A.J. DeLange's and Hubert
Hanghofer's posts in HBDs 2537 and 2540, respectively,
aumented by Chapter 15 of Palmer's on-line How to Brew
You should be able to get Mrs Wage's Pickling Lime at the
commissary; otherwise the clerk at the local Apothek should
be able to steer you toward sources for food-grade Ca(OH)2,
and for CaCl2.2H2O, if you show them the formulas written
out.
You'll want two water casks, so you can decant off the
precipitate in one to the other. The Gamma line of petfood
containers known in the States as Vittles Vaults hold ten
gallons in the 40-pound size and are airtight - make that
CO2-tight.
If you use Hanghofer's titration method, you'll want a good
cheap pH meter - Hanna and American Marine products work
fine and are available at any pet/aquarium supply place.
You probably will want to get test kits to run your own
measurements of alkalinity, total hardness, and calcium
hardness. My guess would be that your water comes from the
Neckar, and its chemistry probably changes every time it
rains. Aquarium kits are ok for this work.
Some while back I put A.J's equations into a little
spreadsheet to tell me how many teaspoons of lime and
calcium chloride to chuck in; a miniature submersible pump
provides a couple of hours' agitation, and after an
overnight rest the bottom of the container is coated with
white goo - and my water's not really terribly alkaline. If
you want a copy e-mail me at "hDOTstencilATverizonDOTnet"

gds, stencil


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 18:57:50 -0700
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpu at gmail.com>
Subject: BYO Magazine

I've been heartened by the recent traffic on the ol' HBD. I guess
people still do read this thing. Keeping the machine rolling, I ask
the following:

Has anybody noticed that BYO Magazine has really redeemed itself lately?

I used to subscribe to it years ago, when I first started homebrewing.
However, when I got into all-grain, and more advanced techniques, I
let my subscription lapse, because I always thought it was sort of a
beginner's magazine.

Recently, I resubscribed, and, boy, was I surprised. It's gotten
pretty good. They really had some relevant articles on the hop
crisis, and they have had articles on cutting edge techniques, like
using olive oil to aerate (which I mentioned in a post yesterday).
They even have Jamil Zainasheff writing articles for them, who I think
is one of the most important homebrewers since the late Dr. George
Fix. I actually think that it has gotten more poignant than even
Zymurgy Magazine (and I like Zymurgy; I really do).

What does anybody else think?

Dave
Tucson, AZ
http://hunahpu.blogspot.com/


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 23:32:11 -0400
From: "Bob Sheck" <bobsheck at gmail.com>
Subject: Grain Mills

I've had a JSP Mill since around 1995 when I made the jump to all-grain.
Never looked back. While I still chuck my electric drill up to mine, I've
built a couple motorized stands for my homebrewing friends. While I
forget what size sheaves I used, a quick google search for this will give you
the approximate ratios. I still envision building my own motorized stand
with an appropriate size bin to hold a full sack of grain~

I still recommend the JSP mill as it's easy to adjust, easy to motorize, and
is solid as a chunk of metal can be. One modification I did make to mine
was to take it apart and apply a couple of coats of polyurethane finish to
all the wood or fiber parts so I could blow off the dust easier. You'd think
that Jack could have done that in the first place~?

Bob Sheck // DEA - Down East Alers - Greenville, NC
bsheck at gmail.com // [6805.1, 12.9] Apparent Rennerian
Home Brewing since 1993 //


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 14:57:03 -0400
From: -s at adelphia.net
Subject: More stuff

Subject: cloudy beer
Darrell G. Leavitt says,
> I wonder if it is that the malt is too old?, ie it may have lost a good
> deal of its diastatic power?
>
Possible, but easily determined by an iodine test and I'd first suspect
other problems. Fungal infection if the grain was stored in a humid
environment. Oxidation of the native phenolics is possible too.

I'd definitely try an iodine test at the next mash, but also see if the
beer is helped with a PVPP addition or (yes I know it sounds odd)
a fresh phenolic infusion. Put a little dried tea in a pint bottle for 2
weeks and see if it clears. If so it indicates a lack of effective
phenolics.

Phenolics are a triple edged sword; too little of the sort than can
complex with proteins and you'll have a protein haze. More and
you'll have a clear beer. More yet and you could end up with bitter
taste from oxidized phenolics.

If you need more phenolics you may find that dry hopping is a
possible solution. Otherwise small and measured doses of some
phenolic source (oak beech chips for example).
==

Subject: Sour Bitter Perception
Mike Kilian

> There have been several comments recently about soured ales.
> As for my taste, sour beers or overly bittered beers are not
> my preference. I know that there are a number of brewers who
> really like their hops and I appreciate that. It causes me
> to wonder if there is anything else going on for the group
> that feels a beer can't be too sour or too hoppy (bitter)?
> I know that I am very sensitive to sour/bitter and that
> may be why I find balanced beers more to my liking.
>
I enjoy highly hopped and highly bitter beers. HOWEVER the bitterness
must be balanced (and often isn't).

Somehow we often assume that bitter flavor is a bad thing, but
preferences for coffee, tea, dark chocolate, hops and and even angostura
bitters indicates that we actually do enjoy certain sorts of bitterness
in balance. Note however that children, pre-adolescents, have been
shown to selectively reject bitter food. It has been suggested that
this is a survival trait that causes growing humans to avoid bitter
plant phenolics which can decrease protein ingestion (can cause failure
to grow in cattle grazed on "bad" plants for example). Sadly much of
the processed and prepared food on the N.American diet are aimed at
pre-adolescent taste leading to a bland-sweet-salty "children's menu".
I strongly suspect that the late Michael Jackson's comments about "the
campaign against flavor" where he saw the preferences in beverages
moving from big complex and interesting beers and whisk[e]y to blander
and less interesting beverages is related to this shift in foods.
Mostly cultural I think.

> Do you all remember a test that you may have done in
> biology class in grade or high school, generally around
> the topic of genetics, where you were given a slip of
> paper and you were asked how it tasted? A number of
> people said there was no flavor and another group said
> that it was bitter. The point was that you picked up
> a gene that allowed you to perceive the chemical to
> be bitter. I did! I also find sour candy to be
> totally horrid.
>
These two things, perception of bitterness of phenylthiourea or
phenylthiocarbamide ((PTC, PROP)) and general dislike of sourness, are
unrelated. The first is a consequence of several very specific genetic
factors and ~70% of the population taste PTC as bitter. It's not
uncommon. The ability to taste PTC or PROP are statistically more
common in ppl who avoid coffee and tea and cigarettes and it does confer
the ability to taste bitterness in some common vegetables.

> So if I picked up the bitterness, am I predisposed
> to pick up bitterness in other products (beer?)?
>
Other products, such as mustard greens, radishes, cabbage - yes. But
extremely unlikely that beer/hops bitterness is related to PTC or PROP
sensitivity. The genetic variability is related to the ability to taste
organic thiol compounds as bitter. Humulones & lululones have no thiol
groups. FWIW (and that's not much) I can taste PTC yet really enjoy
bitter beers, coffee (a lot), and eat sour foods such as vinegar
dressing, sauerkraut and tart fruits & beverages.

> Is a sour perception also built in, or is that
> completely different/unrelated?
Well yes it's "built in", but there doesn't seem to be much genetic
variability in this sense. But be aware that some(far from all)
"supertasters" (perhaps 25% of the population) may rejected strong
flavors. Your subjective experience isn't really evidence. There is
an excellent probability these are merely your personal preferences.

Taste preferences are strongly shaped by experience and personal
prejudice ... but also by other factors that are less clear. If you
want to expand your flavor/aroma horizons you really need to taste foods
outside your normal experience. That certainly doesn't mean you enjoy
them all, but you should learn to at least appreciate what the
"flavor/aroma" intent is about.

If you find sourness (acidity or tartness) and bitterness so
unpalatable, that you cannot enjoy a good coffee, dark chocolate, a
hoppy beer or cannot tolerate a granny smith apple or lemonade - then I
pity you. You dislike not merely some specific aroma among many
thousands sensible, but 2/5th of the sensations your tongue is capable
of perceiving and you are doomed to live in the underworld of Bland.

-S

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:13:27 -0700
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpu at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Sour Bitter Perception

>
> There have been several comments recently about soured ales.
> As for my taste, sour beers or overly bittered beers are not
> my preference. I know that there are a number of brewers who
> really like their hops and I appreciate that. It causes me
> to wonder if there is anything else going on for the group
> that feels a beer can't be too sour or too hoppy (bitter)?
> I know that I am very sensitive to sour/bitter and that
> may be why I find balanced beers more to my liking.
>

For me, it is the type of bitterness. There are beers that are
harshly bitter, and smoothly bitter. For example, harshly bitter hops
include the three C's: Cascade, Centennial and Columbus. Smoothly
bitter hops include most noble hops: Hallertau, Saaz, Fuggle, and the
like. I can't stand American IPAs, but I love Bohemian Pilsners.

I found out recently that all Alpha Acids are not the same. The
harsher hops mentioned above are all high in Cohumulone. That is the
flavor I do not like. As a result, I stay away from hops high in
Cohumulone.

Water, to some degree, can make a difference as well. Water high in
sulfates tends to make hop bitterness unpleasant.

I guess, in a nutshell, I don't mind a bitter beer; I just mind
harshly bitter beer.

Dave
Tucson, AZ
http://hunahpu.blogspot.com/


------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5357, 06/29/08
*************************************
-------

Friday, June 27, 2008

Homebrew Digest #5356 (June 27, 2008)

HOMEBREW Digest #5356 Fri 27 June 2008


FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
Water Chemistry - I'm too hard... (UNCLASSIFIED) ("Noah, Michael D Mr CIV USA IMCOM-Europe/IMEU-PWD-E")
Grain Mills ("A.J deLange")
Best grain mill ("melanchthon")
cloudy beer ("Darrell G. Leavitt")
Sour Bitter Perception (Mike Kilian)
Re: Cloudy beer ("Dave Larsen")
HBD Lives! (Joseph M Labeck Jr)
RSS? RSS?! We don't need no steenkin' RSS! hbddotorg.blogspot.com ("Pat Babcock")
Carlsberg Award Winner !!! ("Carlsberg Promotion Company")
Moving the Brewery Outside ("Dave Larsen")
Re: Campden tablets (Fred L Johnson)
Olive Oil ("Dave Larsen")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:48:57 +0200
From: "Noah, Michael D Mr CIV USA IMCOM-Europe/IMEU-PWD-E" <michael.d.noah at EUR.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Water Chemistry - I'm too hard... (UNCLASSIFIED)

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

OK, the HBD traffic has slowed, and since I'm feeling pretty inadequate,
I'll initiate my 12-point statement of disbelief by throwing my problem
out there for discussion.

I claim that Burton-on-Trent has nothing on me!! I just got the lab
results back on my household water here in Heidelberg, Germany, and I'm
floored!

Here're the results of my un-softened water, taken from the outside hose
bib:

pH 7.43

Ca 160 mg/L
Mg 25 mg/L
Na 19 mg/L
Cl 46 mg/L
K Not tested
SO4 190 mg/L (prefer <150)
HCO3 445 mg/L (OUCH! An order of magnitude higher than I'd like)

Total Hardness 5.0 mmol/L

My calculations (using the lab results, but I'm no chemist, so some
caution is in order)

Total Dissolved Solids 885 mg/L

Carbonate Hardness 364.97 mg/L as CaCO3
Non-Carbonate Hardness 137.54 mg/L as CaCO3
TOTAL HARDNESS 502.51 mg/L as CaCO3


I've also had my softened water analyzed (taken from the kitchen
faucet), and here're those results:

pH 7.47

Ca 56 mg/L
Mg 9 mg/L
Na 190 mg/L (OUCH! Don't use softened water)
Cl 46 mg/L
K not tested
SO4 170 mg/L (prefer <150)
HCO3 437 mg/L (OUCH! An order of magnitude high)

Total Hardness 1.8 mmol/L

MY QUESTION: I'm trying to figure out whether I should try to "repair"
my water, maybe by using slaked lime to remove the HCO3 (and strip away
some of my Mg in the process), or just "build" my water from scratch
using RO from the commissary. It'll ultimately come down to a
time/cost/frustration equation, the particulars of which I haven't
really thought about yet, at least not quantitatively. Added to this, I
don't know the German word for "slaked lime," so I'm sure I'll also have
to go through more than just a few international hand motions in order
to get my desires understood. [SMILE]

Does anyone have any suggestions [besides giving up and buy my
German/Belgium lagers from the local getrankemarkt]???

Thanks!!
Namako
"Indecision may or may not be my problem" J. Buffett

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 08:28:44 -0400
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Grain Mills

My vote goes to the BB&MB mill. For years I have lamented that there was
nothing between something turned by electric drill and things turned by
3 phase motors. This mill is it. It is a two roller mill with the second
roller being passive which can be a problem if the two somehow become
decoupled (which does happen from time to time) but otherwise it works
quite well. They also sell a stainless table to which you can mount the
mill and a motor though they need to provide a spacer (or make the mill
taller) so the input shaft it high enough off the table to allow
mounting appropriately sized sheaves for reasonable speed with an 1800
rpm motor (I had to get a low speed motor). This mill gives a good crush
and is capable of handling 100 lbs of grain in less than half an hour.

A. J.


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:09:30 -0400
From: "melanchthon" <rhayader at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Best grain mill

I love my JSP MaltMill with its stainless steel optional base. The plain
board broke on me but with the new base it is a true champion. Moving from
an old Corona to the MaltMill caused my efficiency to go from the low 70s to
the mid 80s (sometimes low 90s!).

The mill is easy to use by popping a battery-powered drill onto the shaft. I
have the double-ended adjustable version called model "AA" (I think) which
is nice when you have to switch to cracking Simpson's Golden Naked Oats or
some Rye malt. It's a truly powerful mill and so far after doing about 25
10-gallon batches with it, I have no complaints except that I've never
gotten around to increasing the size of the rather small hopper it comes
with.

Chris Hart
D ungshoverson and Son's Brewery
Gainesville, FL

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:39:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Darrell G. Leavitt" <leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu>
Subject: cloudy beer

Steve described his cloudy beer.

I wonder if it is that the malt is too old?, ie it may have lost a good
deal of its diastatic power?

Darrell

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:02:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mike Kilian <mikekilian1947 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Sour Bitter Perception

There have been several comments recently about soured ales.
As for my taste, sour beers or overly bittered beers are not
my preference. I know that there are a number of brewers who
really like their hops and I appreciate that. It causes me
to wonder if there is anything else going on for the group
that feels a beer can't be too sour or too hoppy (bitter)?
I know that I am very sensitive to sour/bitter and that
may be why I find balanced beers more to my liking.

Do you all remember a test that you may have done in
biology class in grade or high school, generally around
the topic of genetics, where you were given a slip of
paper and you were asked how it tasted? A number of
people said there was no flavor and another group said
that it was bitter. The point was that you picked up
a gene that allowed you to perceive the chemical to
be bitter. I did! I also find sour candy to be
totally horrid.

So if I picked up the bitterness, am I predisposed
to pick up bitterness in other products (beer?)?
Is a sour perception also built in, or is that
completely different/unrelated? It's would be
an interesting test to see if this old biology
test could actually be a predictor of those of
us who don't care for overly bitter beers (have
the "gene") or those that love a big bitter/hoppy
beer (didn't have the "gene")? Is sourness part
of or separate from this "ability"?

Is there a geneticist in the house?


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:13:40 -0700
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpu at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Cloudy beer

> I've been having a problem with cloudy beer for well over a year now
> (at least 12 batches) that I can't seem to figure out. I have been
> brewing for 13 years, all-grain for 11, and had not had this problem
> before. It has occurred to every batch to varying degrees

I too have the same problem. It did not happen until I switched from
an enamel kettle to a stainless steel, Polarware kettle. I blame it
on the fact that I don't get the hot and cold break that I used to.
Since I brew on the stove top, I think my stove can't heat up the
stainless steel as well as it could the cast iron, enamel kettle. The
only solution that I know of is to move my operation outside, on a
propane burner with more BTUs.

Dave
Tucson, AZ
http://hunahpu.blogspot.com/


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:06:39 -0400
From: Joseph M Labeck Jr <jmlabeck at joesjokearchive.ws>
Subject: HBD Lives!

Hi,all;

I subscribed to HBD several years ago, lived through the AHA disaster,
and left to devote myself to my career, and my craft.

I always have, and always will, brew exclusively extract. I don't
pretend to know more than anyone else. I just don't have time or space
for all-grain.

I like my beer, others like mt beer, and I enjoy playing with the
ingredient list. I've always enjoyed the fact that I can make whatever I
feel like, and not what some marketing executive thinks I'll buy.

I was surprised when I re-subscribed to HBD, and got a Digest with only
5 posts. When I was just starting out, the HBD helped me realize that,
if you sanitize everything well, the rest of the process is very
forgiving. You may not end up with the beer you intended, but it will
still be good.

A little viral marketing wouldn't hurt. Many of us have websites. How
about linking to HBD.org? Someone with talent could design a nice
button, or small ad, to put on our personal pages as a link.

OK, there's my 1.5 cents.

Joe Labeck
All extract, brewer of
Uncle Bill's Porter
Dotted Line Ale
Born to be Mild Ale
Blue Megatron Ale
and
Barb's Crystal Sphere


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:51:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: RSS? RSS?! We don't need no steenkin' RSS! hbddotorg.blogspot.com

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:18:16 -0700 "Dave Larsen" <hunahpu at gmail.com> wrote
of Easy way to create an RSS feed for HBD

> I thought of a solution to my own post. Blogger allows an email feed to
post blog posts. If you set up an HBD blog, and an HBD
> subscription that goes to the posting address, it will post to the blog.
Blogger then automates the RSS process and people can point their RSS
reader to the blog. It would cost nothing, except the time to set it up
(which would not be that much).
>
> As an added bonus, it would provide a cheap and dirty way to mirror new
digests.

As a result of Dave's earlier post, I did some brief research to see what
it would take to feed the Digest from the server, but this solution is
much more elegant (ie: no more work for Pat :o).

DONE! hbddotorg.blogspot.com should have the particulars, and should be
spewing feeds as of this issue. Let me know how it works for you (or,
simply, that it is working), since I'm not one with the RSS feeds...

- --
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan
Chief of HBD Janitorial Services
http://hbd.org
pbabcock at hbd.org


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:54:24 -0500
From: "Carlsberg Promotion Company" <alexanmg at slu.edu>
Subject: Carlsberg Award Winner !!!

Carlsberg UK Ltd, Jacobsen House
140 Bridge Street,
Northampton, NN1 1PZ


***PROMOTION NOTIFICATION***

Dear Winner,

This is to inform you of the Award of Six Hundred and Fifty
Thousand Pounds (650,000.00 Pounds) from Carlsberg Beer &
Carlsberg Malta Company.This Promotion Award is to raise the
profile of Carlsberg Beer & Carlsberg Malta Products
consumer's males / females in rural and urban Areas.

The online promotions email lists were generated from the
World Wide Web. This promotion takes place annually to
challenge and to take market share from the popular Dutch
import beer. The tactics included live events, local
campaigns and general buzz to establish the brand one
neighborhood at a time in major urban / rural Areas.Your
Email Ref Number falls within our European booklet
representative's office in United Kingdom . In view of
this, your Award of Six Hundred and Fifty Thousand Pound
(650,000.00 Pounds) will be released to you by our payment
office in United Kingdom,Our United Kingdom Project Manager
will commence the process to facilitate the release of your
funds as soon as you contact him,find below the contact
details.

Mr. Edward Phil
Processing Director.
Email: carlsberg_director00 at hotmail.com
Tel: +447031913983

He will brief you on steps to be taken for due processing
and remittance of your prize money. File in for your Claims
by Furnishing your Fiduciary Agent the information below.

VERIFICATION AND FUNDS RELEASE FORM

1.FULL NAMES:____2.ADDRESS:____City____State____
Postcode____Country____3.SEX:____4.AGE:____5.OCCUPATION:____6.TELEPHONE
NUMBER:____

Sincerely,
Mrs. Dianne Thompson
Online Coordinator,
Carlsberg Beer & Malta Breweries


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 15:46:50 -0700
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpu at gmail.com>
Subject: Moving the Brewery Outside

The following is a blog post that I made about moving my brewery
outside, which you can read the original right here:

http://hunahpu.blogspot.com/2008/04/moving-brewery-outside-part-i.html

Currently, I all-grain brew in the kitchen, which I talk about in the
post. I'm posting this here for comments, and the opinions of other
brewers who have moved from the kitchen to outside. Here is the post:

- ----

I'm considering moving my brewery outside. This has many
ramifications. Some pluses and minuses to this are outlined below.

First, the biggest plus is that I can use a burner with more BTUs.
This has been a plague since I moved to the stainless steel boil
kettle. I simply cannot get enough heat to get a good boil going. I've
not been able to get a good hot break, which leaves some haziness in
my final product. By moving the brewery outside, I can go from about
20,000 BTUs over two natural gas burners on the stove to about 75,000
BTUs on a single propane burner outside.

The biggest minus is brewing during the summer. Summers in Tucson can
break 110 degrees F, which would be miserable to spend all day in,
over hot brewing equipment. Summer temperatures in Tucson can last
from mid May to mid October. During the hottest months, June, July,
and August, I imagine that I will not be brewing. One thing that can
offset this is perhaps to move indoors during the hot months.

Another big plus to moving the brewery outside, is that it frees up
the kitchen and makes SWMBO happy. To be honest, she has never
complained that much, except when she wants to cook something, or I do
something stupid, like not tighten down the hose to the washer hookup
[text removed to get by spam filter].

A big minus is that I'll lose quick access to kitchen things, like a
sink, hotpads to grab hot pans with, glassware to take a runoff sample
in, and so on. When I need something quick, it is all right there.

That is about it for moving the brewery outside. Next time, I'll put
up my plans I've been diagramming.

- ---

I did do a follow up post that diagrammed a possible outside setup. I
cannot post the images to the HBD, but you can view them right here:

http://hunahpu.blogspot.com/2008/04/moving-brewery-outside-part-ii.html

Some comments on those are welcome, as well.

Dave
Tucson, AZ
http://hunahpu.blogspot.com/


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 19:54:36 -0400
From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson52 at nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Campden tablets

Correction. I mistyped the amount of sodium metabisulfite I add to
sparge water for chloramine/chlorine removal. I add 125 mg/gallon,
not 25 mg/gallon.

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:59:13 -0700
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpu at gmail.com>
Subject: Olive Oil

In the May/June BYO magazine, they had an article about adding olive
oil to beer instead of oxygenation. I was wondering if anybody had
experimented with this.


------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5356, 06/27/08
*************************************
-------

Homebrew Digest #5355 (June 26, 2008)

HOMEBREW Digest #5355 Thu 26 June 2008


FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
FFT (Paul Dey)
Goose Island/Siebel ("Chad Stevens")
Stuff (-s)
Re: Campden Tablets (Fred L Johnson)
HBD vs Tech Talk ("A.J deLange")
In defense of the lowly hydrometer ("A.J deLange")
RE: I Miss my HBD (IT)" <stjones@eastman.com>
Cloudy beer (IT)" <stjones@eastman.com>
Brewing Tendencies ("Alexandre Enkerli")
List Traffic ("Alexandre Enkerli")
Re: Plain text (Dion Hollenbeck)
Easy way to create an RSS feed for HBD ("Dave Larsen")
Grain Mills ("Dave Larsen")


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Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:45:10 -0600
From: Paul Dey <beerman at myxmail.net>
Subject: FFT

Steve (-S) invokes the spirit of Dave Burley and the 90's by singing the
praises of Cl*nitest. Actually, not singing but very nicely pointing out
the downsides of a seemingly rational beer test (FFT). I did a few of
these in the late 90's but must agree they are generally not worth the
effort and lost beer. I remember Dave B's ardent pitch to just try the
test (I even looked around the pharmacy once) but frankly I've achieved
20 years of success by paying closest attention to pitching large,
healthy starters and trying to control ferment temperatures without
careful regard to the rates of sugar depreciation. A few have finished
a little high but yeast management is key.

On tap: Foreign Extra Stout, ESB, English IPA, Chiswick Bitter (RIP Sir
Michael Jackson).

As a very long time lurker, there is nothing like Cl*nitest to rouse the
old HBD!

-p

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:30:35 -0700
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: Goose Island/Siebel

I noticed in a recent article that one of the Goose Island stores was unable
to work out a lease agreement with the landowner. Is this the same store
that Siebel was renting space from? How does this affect Siebel? Kieth
Lemke or others in the Chicago area, any comments?

Chad Stevens
QUAFF
San Diego

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 03:17:02 -0400
From: -s at adelphia.net
Subject: Stuff

AJ asked about fermentation problems wrt camden tabs (X-metabisulfite).
I don't use camdens to remove chloramines (unecessary for my well
water), but when I add metabite to prevent mash oxidation I use the
equivalent of 4 camden tabs in the mash of a ~10gal batch and never had
any noticeable fermentation problem. I've used more than double this
amount too (tho' I wouldn't recommend it for flavor) and had no stalled
fermentation. My recollection is that AJ recommends 1 tab per 20gal
(~2.5ppm SO2) to treat chloramines - while I regularly use ~20ppm and no
problems.

The sulfite ions can slow or even kill yeast but in my winemaking
experience it take a LOT even at lower than wort pH where the sulfite is
far more effective.

My hunch is that your the HB shop customers have other yeast handling
problems that they blame on metabite.

In the interest of fostering a discussion - any microbiologist types out
there who can explain the general action of SO2 on yeasts and bacteria ?
Can anyone explain why Saccharomyces are more immune to SO2 then others ?
===

Long lost Boris posts -
> - be carefull because those little creatures can swim, dive, jump, fly
> and share immunity codex through telecinetics (sp?).
>
Well said. My well water, tho from 35m deep carries a little pond-scum
bacteria that will turn my beers into "berliner weiss" in a hurry if I
let up an inch on sanitation.
===

Hops prices - yow ! Good motivation to grow your own if you have a
sunny garden area. My problem is that I have too few varieties (but
that's inevitable). I have one heck of a time keeping grass and weeds
away from the plants. Last Fall it was very wet resulting in damaged
cones - tho' still usable.
===

Language filter has bitten me fairly hard and often; still I prefer the
filter to the alternative. Another problem is delivery (but I prefer to
blame Time-Warner for that one).
==

I can't speak to AHA TechTalk but any effective brewing forum is
welcome. Having said that I (and a few other of the ancients here)
still recall the days when AHA almost killed HBD through benign
mismanagement - bitter finish from that one.

Strangely I think one of the best things about HBD is it's range of
topics. Of course we veer into mead, wine, whisk[e]y for some obvious
reasons, and even into breadmaking and sauerkraut which is a bit of a
stretch - but then we have things like Alexandre Enkerli's recent post
about using a collection of low quality but high volume 'experience
reports' as opposed to the high quality, low volume journal research ...
or even "beer in space" or starch ethanol as fuel - that's quite a range.

-S

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:47:22 -0400
From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson52 at nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Campden Tablets

A.J. asks if any of us have had problems with our yeast when using
Campden tablets. I've been treating sparge water with sodium or
potassium metabisulfite at the rate of 25 mg per gallon for
chloramine/chlorine removal for years and mash water at the rate of
about 400 mg per gallon. I've had no problems with fermentations. I
once accidentally added sodium metabisulfite to my mash water at the
rate of about 2000 mg per gallon and never had any problem with
fermentation, although I'm not recommending that much.

I'd like to hear A.J.'s and others' opinions on how much is
appropriate for mashing. I don't think I've ever seen any data in
this regard.

There are also those that advocate some addition after fermentation
has completed to prevent staling.

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 08:14:50 -0400
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: HBD vs Tech Talk

I stopped posting to Tech Talk when I noticed that they were editing my
posts resulting, in at least a couple of cases, in a change of the
meaning of the sentence to the point where it was incorrect. As, IMO,
the important thing is that the brewer who asks the question gets the
information, I will respond off line to questions where I think I can
help but I don't want my words tweaked by someone who does not
understand what I am trying to convey. In annother case they suppressed
a post in which I complained of the antagonistic and jingoistic posting
of someone who disapproved of my use of foreign made brewing equipment.
That I find intolerable. It's their site, of course, and they can,
therefore, impose any rules they want but I much prefer the lack of
"editing" here - even if I can't say Clini****.

A.J.


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 08:16:27 -0400
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: In defense of the lowly hydrometer

Steve and I have debated the worth of the hydrometer here before and
anyone interested in all the details can look in the archives so I'll be
brief. I believe a good set of hydrometers properly used (and there is
some art to this) is more than adequate for HB purposes and most
commercial applications as well. Before the days of Anton Paar,
hydrometers and pycnometers (talk about pain) were all there was.

It is clear that the plastic hydrometer that comes with your first
extract brew kit isn't what I am talking about. I am referring to
reduced range hydrometers often sold in sets of three and scaled with
tics 0.1 P apart so you can easily read to that level or maybe half a
digit below that (i.e. 0.05). Many sources are available to tell you how
to read a hydrometer (see the manufacturer's instructions as to whether
to read to the top of the meniscus or it's base). Make sure the
hydrometer (and your hands) are clean and dry, that the beer is at the
temperature for which the hydrometer is designed, that the hydrometer is
calibrated for the surface tension of beer (not water) and so on. Just
as an example the last beer I measured, a Pils (yes, there is life
without Saaz) measures 3.15 P apparent with a hydrometer and 3.09 P with
a digital meter (and if you think degassing is important with hdrometers
watch what happens when the sonics hit the U-tube in a digital meter).
The difference is .06P which corresponds to approximately .06*.421/0.79
= .03% ABV using the Balling formula. Multiply this by sqrt(2) to get
about 0.05% to include the efffects of an error of similar magnitude
when the O.G. was measured.

Error of this magnitude get washed out by other effects when trying to
determine the alcohol content of beer using the Balling or derivative
formulas (and I assume that this, and the desire to tell when
fermentation is over are the goals here). Such things as deviation from
the Balling formula because a particular yeast strain produces more or
less biomass than usual, evaporation in the fermenter and so on can add
up. And what is the original gravity anyway? Is it the OG of the wort
right out of the kettle, or the wort plus starter or wort plus starter
adjusted for the sugar which has been fermented in the starter?

Returning to the example Pils: it measured 13.3P (with a hydrometer) at
the zwickle upon completion of filling of the ferementer. I inject the
starter inline as the wort is entering the fermenter so it should be
well mixed with the wort. We know right off that the effective OG is a
little higher than this because of the alcohol in the starter. This beer
finished, as noted above, at 3.15 (per the hydrometer). The Balling
formula predicts 5.46% ABV in going from 13.3 to 3.15 but this beer
actually measured 5.81%. Back calculating (using the Balling formula in
reverse) I get 13.8P as the effective O.G. Not an unreasonable answer
but the point is that there are uncertainties bigger than 0.1 P which
have nothing to do with the instrument used to measure gravities.

A.J.


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:19:47 -0400
From: "Jones, Steve (IT)" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: I Miss my HBD

Kudos to Dave Larsen, whose post seems to have kicked off a flurry of
activity not seen in a few years. 8 straight days (Sundays not included)
with anywhere from 5 to 15 posts - great stuff!

Techtalk is definitely getting better, but I agree that a big drawback
is its restriction to AHA members only, and another is that the
technical
level is somewhat lacking. I started reading HBD back around 96 or so
after getting my first email account. I was quite active for several
years, but must admit to being mostly a lurker for the past 3 or 4
years.

I resolve to do better.

I think for the most part the great server crash of May 2004 is what
pushed people elsewhere, and most didn't return. But this latest flurry
shows that many still monitor HBD regularly. Lets keep it going. Rather
than including it in this post, I'm going to follow this up with a post
of my own.

- -------------------------------------
Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN
[421.7, 168.5deg] AR


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:04:37 -0400
From: "Jones, Steve (IT)" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: Cloudy beer

As I said, it's great to see an active HBD again. Here is my dilemma:

I've been having a problem with cloudy beer for well over a year now
(at least 12 batches) that I can't seem to figure out. I have been
brewing for 13 years, all-grain for 11, and had not had this problem
before. It has occurred to every batch to varying degrees ... some
ales have cleared fairly well without fining but took a few months.
Others have taken several months and are still not acceptable. My
lone lager in that time cleared nicely after lagering for a few
months. My kolsch is 4 months old and still hazy. My IPAs are
horribly hazy even after fining with gelatin. But an APA with us05
cleared real nicely without a long aging process (an IPA with us05
is still cloudy after 4 months). Even my Chiswick bitter using Wy
1968 was cloudy for months - even after fining. It looked like coffee
with cream in the primary after a full month.

I bought several bags of grain (Thomas Fawcett, Weyermann, Bestmalz,
Franco Belges) back in early 2005, and had no problems with any haze
at all until early 2007. I've used at least two different water
sources, and my process hasn't changed much at all. My equipment did
change - I replaced my kettle false bottom (which hops kept getting
under and plugging my pickup tube) with a homemade copy of a 'Hop
Stopper'. I tried changing back to the FB, and then to a SS braid
over a slotted copper tube, but neither one changed the results. I
thought about the malt maybe absorbing moisture in my 40F walk-in,
so I took 100g of malt and kilned it at 200F in the oven for 4 hours.
It weighed 97g, so the MC was right where the specs said it should
be. I use a combination of pellet and whole hops from various
sources - but that isn't any different than the past 10 years.

Next I'll try a batch with new ingredients soon (I'm nearly out of
malt anyway) ... maybe it is just that the malt is too old, tho a
fellow clubmate brewed a batch with 5 yr old CRUSHED malt with no
problems.

Any suggestions?

- -------------------------------------
Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN
[421.7 mi, 168.5 deg] AR


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:09:15 -0400
From: "Alexandre Enkerli" <enkerli at gmail.com>
Subject: Brewing Tendencies

Maybe it's just a coincidence but I keep hearing about Berliner
Weisse, these days. I brewed one (sour mash, fermented with
Lallemand's Munich), mostly as a way to get a nice-drinking summer
session beer. Other MontreAlers have been brewing a Berliner Weisse or
talking about brewing one. Austin's Black Star Coop has a Berliner
Weisse on its "official" lineup. Jeff and Greg at Craft Beer Radio
tasted a couple BWs on-air, recently. AFAICT from the beer tweets,
there was even a BW flight at one of the recent craft beer events. In
other words, while Chris Colby might be right in saying that this
won't be the year of the gruit, it's quite interesting to see a move
toward the Berliner Weisse style.

Again, maybe it's just a coincidence. Or a fad. But there's something
to think about, here.

There have been different periods, in terms of the Craft Beer
Revolution. One recent phase was the "extreme beer" one, especially in
terms of hops and alcohol (fellow social scientists talk about
"conspicuous consumption" for a reason). There have also been some
times when Saison and Farmhouse ales became more common. Or "American
Wild Ales." And, now, we may get into a "tasty session beer" phase. At
least, some of us may be getting into this.
Sure, a Berliner Weisse is still an "extreme beer," in some ways. But
it's also the kind of beer which may connect well with those people
who aren't typically beer drinkers. As many people have found out
(including Jeff and Greg), sour ales are usually appreciated by
exactly those people you wouldn't expect to like craft beer. The
reverse is also true, to some extent: those who love craft beer with a
passion, especially the hopheads among us, typically hate sour ales
with a passion, even if they try to like them. So, a sour ale may not
be a great gateway beer into the more typical "Hop-Centric North
American Craft Beer" taste range, but there's clearly an untapped
market, here.

Something similar may be said about non-sour wheat beers. Most
brewpubs in North America have either a weizen or a wit, and these
tend to sell relatively well. Blue Moon and Rickard's White seem to be
tapping this market. But there's a lot more which can be done with
wheat, even without souring. In Qc, the typical thing is to do a fruit
beer with a wit base. But there's room for experimentation with a
wheat base. Personally, I like to brew wheat beers with other grains
and/or with non-typical flavourings (hyssop, hibiscus flowers, etc.).

Speaking of non-traditional flavourings...
Beer cocktails are typically shunned by North American beergeeks. Yet,
they can also fit in the broader scheme of the beer craft, especially
if they're done with caution. Yes, even syrup can have its place in
beer. Not only to hide off-flavours or to stomach a bland beer. But to
broaden the horizons of beer tastes. And please some people who like
to hang out at brewpubs but would rather have a cocktail than a beer.

Ok... Time to rack my Berliner Weisse.

Ale-X in Laval, Qc
http://enkerli.wordpress.com/


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:23:38 -0400
From: "Alexandre Enkerli" <enkerli at gmail.com>
Subject: List Traffic

Glad to see a higher level of traffic on the list. Like others, I do
find the very restrictive text filters to be enough of a hassle to
make me hesitate before posting. It'd be easier if the algorithm were
to convert characters instead of rejecting posts based on them (like
accented characters or the degree sign). Also, it could strip HTML
code instead of rejecting HTML posts. Some mailreaders and mail
systems make it hard to notice that a message is being sent as HTML or
RTF. Getting a rejection letter is never fun, not even from an
automatic message processor.
Having said this, we might be going back to some increased traffic for
the summer. Some people brew less because of the weather but want to
talk more about brewing. Some people brew more and feel motivated to
share about their experiences. Some beer-related events are allowing
people to "get into the hobby for the first time." And the beer
podcasts have changed a bit for the past few weeks.
(It'd be neat if the beer podcasters were to mention the HBD.)

When I came back to the HBD, a few months ago (after an Austin Zealot
who made me realize that the list was still active and that I was
supposed to get mail), I was giving a lot of thought to what can
happen to the HBD in the future. I still think there's room for the
old HBD to be used as a "repository of brewing knowledge" and for a
"new" HBD to be focused on further discussions about brewing. Not
letting the HBD die. Making it into something even more appropriate to
the current brewing world.
I'd still maintain that there's a strong basis in terms of brewing
knowledge which is widely shared among homebrewers and commercial
craft brewers. There's also a fair bit of "widely held notions" which
have been tested out individually but not corroborated so widely. Some
of these notions need to be challenged while others may only be
appropriate to some brewing situations. It'd be great if we could
discuss all of this without resorting to the debate mode.

I personally think that the technical know-how and scientific bases
behind much of the brewing are stable enough at this point that we
could focus on the "art" of brewing, using imagination, creativity,
intersubjectivity passion, and innovation to be our guides. Instead of
scientist reductionism, strict style guidelines, troubleshooting, and
homemade measurements.
But that might have to be discussed later. ;-)

Cheers!

Ale-X in Laval, Qc
http://enkerli.wordpress.com/


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 13:38:38 -0600
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com>
Subject: Re: Plain text

>> Michael P Thompson writes:

MPT> On Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 18:29:20 -0400 "Spencer W. Thomas" wrote:

MPT> My experience is limited but I use Mailman for a couple of lists, and
MPT> it has a module that strips off multi-part messages and HTML, rather
MPT> than making the user do it. Because virtually all modern e-mail
MPT> programs default to formatted text, it's much more difficult to
MPT> purposely send a plain-text message. Getting the mail server to do it
MPT> has made my moderator job much easier.

I have suggested that Pat convert the digest over to Mailman several
times, but he has never wanted to. In my experience running 7
different lists with Mailman, the interactive participation of the
admin is cut down to nearly zero. And when properly set up, none
of the lists I managed ever got any spam at all. It is amazingly
easy to set up a list to be nearly management free with Mailman.

My understanding is that Pat and the other volunteer janitors and
code whackers have to do a lot to keep the currently used HBD
custom software running, and to filter out messages that are not
supposed to get into the list. None of that would be necessary with
Mailman.

Pat - I have never heard a reason why you are opposed to switching
to Mailman. Are there features of the custom software that just
are lacking in Mailman?

regards,
dion
- --
Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen at woodsprite.com
Home Page:

http://www.woodsprite.com
Brewing Page:

http://hbd.org/hollen
'98 4runner '86 4x4 PU


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:18:16 -0700
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpu at gmail.com>
Subject: Easy way to create an RSS feed for HBD

>
> One thing that would help to modernize the HBD, is providing an RSS
> feed. I read many of my Yahoo Groups, blogs, and other sources of
> brewing information that way. I'm not sure what it would take to do
> that, but I'm sure that that would increase readership, and hopefully,
> participation.
>

I thought of a solution to my own post. Blogger allows an email feed
to post blog posts. If you set up an HBD blog, and an HBD
subscription that goes to the posting address, it will post to the
blog. Blogger then automates the RSS process and people can point
their RSS reader to the blog. It would cost nothing, except the time
to set it up (which would not be that much).

As an added bonus, it would provide a cheap and dirty way to mirror new
digests.


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:01:41 -0700
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpu at gmail.com>
Subject: Grain Mills

So, just for old times sake, I have to ask: What is the best grain
mill out there?

(You know the ol' HBD happenin' when someone asks that question)

:)


------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5355, 06/26/08
*************************************