Friday, March 30, 2012

Homebrew Digest #5928 (March 30, 2012)

HOMEBREW Digest #5928 Fri 30 March 2012


FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
TODAY'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

No "sponsor-level" donation yet this year

Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

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can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

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or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
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tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************


Contents:
Re: Dry hopping (jeff)
Re: Dry Hopping ("David Houseman")
RE: Counterpressuree bottle filler ("David Houseman")
Re: Dry Hopping (W8AV)
Dry Hopping response (Joseph M Labeck Jr)


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
meet its meager operating expenses of approximately $3500
per year. If less than half of those currently directly
subscribed to the HBD sent in a mere $5.00, the HBD would
be able to easily meet its annual expenses, with room to
spare for next year. Please consider it.

Financial Projection as of 03 March 2012
*** Condition: Guarded ***
501(c)3 revoked in process of retroactive reinstatement.
See Site News on http://hbd.org for details and progress.
Projected 2012 Budget $3191.79
Expended against projection $ 721.78
Unplanned expenditures $ 79.98
Projected Excess/(Shortfall) ($ 725.01)

As always, donors and donations are publicly acknowledged
and accounted for on the HBD web page. Thank you


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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
Spencer Thomas, and Bill Pierce


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 06:08:11 -0400
From: jeff <climbzen at pa.net>
Subject: Re: Dry hopping

On 3/30/2012 1:01 AM, tom wrote:
> Things I'm considering include:
> -dumping hops in a sanitized bag directly into the secondary for about 7-10
> days
> -finding hop oil or extract and adding it prior to bottling
> -making a hop tea by boiling some pellets in either water of wort and adding
> it prior to bottling. I need to figure out how much and how long to boil.
*******************
when i dry hop i just dump them in the fermenter. i don't do secondaries
unless i'm bulk aging or adding fruit, but if you do this would be a
good time to add them. no need to use a bag unless you are doing it
right in the keg and want to be able to pull them out with out
transferring. hop extract won't work, it is for bittering and will not
give you nice hop aroma and taste, just make a very bitter beer. i have
never done a hop tea so can't say how it will work, but i know when
people do it they just steep the hops they don't boil them. so in the
end i say just dump them in, give the fermenter a little swirl and wait
a week. if i'm doing a supper hoppy ipa i'll break my dry hop in too two
additions and add half, wait 5 days, add the other half and wait 5 more
days then bottle. good luck.
peace
jeff

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 07:17:49 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Dry Hopping

Tom,

Do #1. Just put the hops in a sanitized bag or tea ball. Or not in
anything if you have filter on your racking cane. The hops themselves are
antiseptic and nothing much is growing on them. Plus by the time you are
dry hopping, the pH of the beer has dropped and there is alcohol, so little
then grows.

David Houseman

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 07:27:44 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman at verizon.net>
Subject: RE: Counterpressuree bottle filler

Scott,

I've made one from directions in an old issue of Brewing Techniques, Brew
Your Own or Zymurgy. Check these on-line. Or even Google. But since
building a counter pressure bottle filler, and buying one, I won a Beer Gun.
I would never go back. The Beer Gun is much easier to use, far less messy
when you screw up (my ceiling is stout colored) and the beer is just as
carbonated. Plus the bottles fill more consistently with less head space
due to over foaming of the beer from the counter pressure filler. I
imagine you can make of of these as well with a little research.

JMHO,

David Houseman

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:06:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: W8AV at aol.com
Subject: Re: Dry Hopping

Tom:

When I dry hop, I just dump the hop pellets (or flowers if I am using them)
into the secondary fermenter and rack the finished beer on top of them.
The alcohol level in the finished beer will be high enough to kill any
nasties that might be living on the hops. Plus, the hops have antiseptic
properties that helps keep them free of the bad bugs.

You will just have to take extra care in racking the beer off the dry hops
when using pellets to make sure the hops remain behind in the carboy and
don't go into the keg or bottles. I keg all my beers here and use an inline
filter screen to accomplish this when using pellet hops. When I use
flowers for dry hopping (which I do most of the time), there is less chance of
picking up pieces of hop material when kegging or transferring to the
bottling bucket.

Hope this helps.

........Goose
Wooster, OH


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:06:02 -0400
From: Joseph M Labeck Jr <jmlabeck at joesjokearchive.ws>
Subject: Dry Hopping response

Hi, all;

Tom Puskay was asking about the best method to "ramp up" his hop
flavor. A lot depends on what you're actually trying to do. I it's
flavor and aroma, probably a sanitized bag is the best way, and probably
the only way to get aroma into the beer, For flavor, a tea would
probably do the trick, as long as you keep the temperature and time down
(below boiling, and below 15 minutes). For just bitterness, hop extract
is the easiest if all. Hope it works out for ya.

------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5928, 03/30/12
*************************************
-------

Thursday, March 29, 2012

Homebrew Digest #5927 (March 29, 2012)

HOMEBREW Digest #5927 Thu 29 March 2012


FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
TODAY'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

No "sponsor-level" donation yet this year

Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a
501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
or more will be provided with receipts. SPONSORSHIPS of any
amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a business expense. Please consult with your
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************


Contents:
Dry hopping (Tom Puskar)
Counterpressure bottle filler ("Dunn, Scott C FLNR:EX")


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
meet its meager operating expenses of approximately $3500
per year. If less than half of those currently directly
subscribed to the HBD sent in a mere $5.00, the HBD would
be able to easily meet its annual expenses, with room to
spare for next year. Please consider it.

Financial Projection as of 03 March 2012
*** Condition: Guarded ***
501(c)3 revoked in process of retroactive reinstatement.
See Site News on http://hbd.org for details and progress.
Projected 2012 Budget $3191.79
Expended against projection $ 721.78
Unplanned expenditures $ 79.98
Projected Excess/(Shortfall) ($ 725.01)

As always, donors and donations are publicly acknowledged
and accounted for on the HBD web page. Thank you


Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

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More information is available by sending the word "info" to
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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
Spencer Thomas, and Bill Pierce


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 09:38:34 -0400
From: Tom Puskar <tpuskar at optonline.net>
Subject: Dry hopping

I just racked a Sierra Nevada IPA clone into the secondary. It looks and
tastes fine except the hop flavor is less than I expected and would like. I
haven't dry hopped a beer in over 10 years and was wondering is anyone could
make suggestions on how to increase the hop flavor with minimal risk of
contamination. Things I'm considering include:
-dumping hops in a sanitized bag directly into the secondary for about 7-10
days
-finding hop oil or extract and adding it prior to bottling
-making a hop tea by boiling some pellets in either water of wort and adding
it prior to bottling. I need to figure out how much and how long to boil.

Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated. I figure I'll leave it in
the secondary for about 10 days from now (29 March).

Thanks,

Tom Puskar
Howell, NJ

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:26:15 -0700
From: "Dunn, Scott C FLNR:EX" <Scott.Dunn at gov.bc.ca>
Subject: Counterpressure bottle filler

Hello all :

I am interested in building a counter pressure bottle filler can any one
help me out with a proven design. I am also interested in any comments
thoughts or secrets folks have about them.

Thanks for the help

Scott C. Dunn RPF

------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5927, 03/29/12
*************************************
-------

Wednesday, March 28, 2012

Homebrew Digest #5926 (March 28, 2012)

HOMEBREW Digest #5926 Wed 28 March 2012


FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
TODAY'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

No "sponsor-level" donation yet this year

Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a
501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
or more will be provided with receipts. SPONSORSHIPS of any
amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a business expense. Please consult with your
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************


Contents:
reducing lager temperature ("Dave Burley")


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
meet its meager operating expenses of approximately $3500
per year. If less than half of those currently directly
subscribed to the HBD sent in a mere $5.00, the HBD would
be able to easily meet its annual expenses, with room to
spare for next year. Please consider it.

Financial Projection as of 03 March 2012
*** Condition: Guarded ***
501(c)3 revoked in process of retroactive reinstatement.
See Site News on http://hbd.org for details and progress.
Projected 2012 Budget $3191.79
Expended against projection $ 721.78
Unplanned expenditures $ 79.98
Projected Excess/(Shortfall) ($ 725.01)

As always, donors and donations are publicly acknowledged
and accounted for on the HBD web page. Thank you


Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
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More information is available by sending the word "info" to
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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
Spencer Thomas, and Bill Pierce


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 10:35:14 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave Burley at charter.net>
Subject: reducing lager temperature

Nathan,

It's correct that a rapid temperature drop will force any yeast including
lager to go dormant. Rewarming is not always successful in returning the
yeast to a non-dormant state, especially if the beer has been depleted by a
fermentation..Best way is to take a small amount of the beer and put it into
a new, small sample of fresh wort at 50F or so. Once this starts fermenting,
add a larger amount of the dormant beer at 50F to the fermenting mix and
gradually over a few days add more and more until it is all fermenting at
around 50F. Ferment this to dryness or nearly so.

Now to chill this, reduce the temperature of the dry fermented beer at about
1-2 degrees per day to below 40F and wait a few ( 3-6) weeks at this
temperature. This will clean up the beer to make a true lager.

Dave Burley.

------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5926, 03/28/12
*************************************
-------

Tuesday, March 27, 2012

Homebrew Digest #5925 (March 27, 2012)

HOMEBREW Digest #5925 Tue 27 March 2012


FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
TODAY'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

No "sponsor-level" donation yet this year

Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a
501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
or more will be provided with receipts. SPONSORSHIPS of any
amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a business expense. Please consult with your
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************


Contents:
Lager (Nathaniel Letcher)


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
meet its meager operating expenses of approximately $3500
per year. If less than half of those currently directly
subscribed to the HBD sent in a mere $5.00, the HBD would
be able to easily meet its annual expenses, with room to
spare for next year. Please consider it.

Financial Projection as of 03 March 2012
*** Condition: Guarded ***
501(c)3 revoked in process of retroactive reinstatement.
See Site News on http://hbd.org for details and progress.
Projected 2012 Budget $3191.79
Expended against projection $ 721.78
Unplanned expenditures $ 79.98
Projected Excess/(Shortfall) ($ 725.01)

As always, donors and donations are publicly acknowledged
and accounted for on the HBD web page. Thank you


Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
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The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright
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before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content
cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to
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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
Spencer Thomas, and Bill Pierce


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 12:01:52 -0500
From: Nathaniel Letcher <nathaniel.letcher at gmail.com>
Subject: Lager

Tom,

While I've not yet brewed a lager, I do not think you'd want to drop
the temperature of the yeast before fermentation is complete. Lager
yeasts, to my understanding, have an optimum fermentation temp.
of something around 50 F. Any yeast when crashed to 36-38 F will
go dormant. It's possible that the Fermentis yeast will continue to
slowly consume the wort's sugars but they will be doing so at a
greatly reduced rate than would be the case if they were 10 degrees
warmer. In fact, many brewers raise the temperature of their wort
to as high as 68 F near the end of fermentation, not only to reduce
diacetyl, but to ensure complete attenuation of the wort. Most of
the undesirable yeast byproducts are produced during the initial growth
phase of fermentation. Once that period has passed it is perfectly fine
to ferment lager yeast at what are considered ale temperatures. The
purpose of lagering is to clear the beer, precipitate proteins/polyphenols,
and, of course, allow the yeast to "clean up" the beer a bit, but
before they can do that the beer needs to be fully attenuated. In your
case, I'd warm the beer back up and rouse the yeast. If you still
don't see a drop in final gravity then you've got another issue with your
process.

Nathan Letcher
St Louis, MO

------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5925, 03/27/12
*************************************
-------

Monday, March 26, 2012

Homebrew Digest #5924 (March 26, 2012)

HOMEBREW Digest #5924 Mon 26 March 2012


FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
TODAY'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

No "sponsor-level" donation yet this year

Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a
501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
or more will be provided with receipts. SPONSORSHIPS of any
amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a business expense. Please consult with your
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************


Contents:
Lager ("Darrell G. Leavitt")


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
meet its meager operating expenses of approximately $3500
per year. If less than half of those currently directly
subscribed to the HBD sent in a mere $5.00, the HBD would
be able to easily meet its annual expenses, with room to
spare for next year. Please consider it.

Financial Projection as of 03 March 2012
*** Condition: Guarded ***
501(c)3 revoked in process of retroactive reinstatement.
See Site News on http://hbd.org for details and progress.
Projected 2012 Budget $3191.79
Expended against projection $ 721.78
Unplanned expenditures $ 79.98
Projected Excess/(Shortfall) ($ 725.01)

As always, donors and donations are publicly acknowledged
and accounted for on the HBD web page. Thank you


Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
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http://hbd.org.

LOOKING TO BUY OR SELL USED EQUIPMENT? Please do not post about it here. Go
instead to http://homebrewfleamarket.com and post a free ad there.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright
HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK
before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content
cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to
req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
Spencer Thomas, and Bill Pierce


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 08:56:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Darrell G. Leavitt" <leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu>
Subject: Lager

Tom:
I have never used the Fermentis dry lager yeast, so take this with a
grain of salt, but I would be inclined to let the lager complete its
fermentation at 50 F, or its normal lager temp before dropping it to 36
or 38 degrees. I feel that the lower temps ARE appropriate if you have
reached your final gravity, but I would be concerned that the colder
temps would allow the yeast to settle out, and you'd not get much more
fermentation, and drop in gravity.

Also, depending upon the yeast strain, some lagers and pils yeasts can
benefit from a "diacetyl rest" at the end of the primary, ie let it go up
to 60F or so for a day (after it has hit the terminal gravity). If your
yeast is one that produces diacetyl, then this higher temp apparently
allows the yeast to eat up the diacetyl, and thereby prevent a "buttery"
off flavor in the final product. Again, I am not familiar with
Fermentis, so this lager yeast may not need that diacetyl rest.

Happy Brewing!
Darrell
===


------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5924, 03/26/12
*************************************
-------

Sunday, March 25, 2012

Homebrew Digest #5923 (March 25, 2012)

HOMEBREW Digest #5923 Sun 25 March 2012


FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
TODAY'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

No "sponsor-level" donation yet this year

Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a
501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
or more will be provided with receipts. SPONSORSHIPS of any
amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a business expense. Please consult with your
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************


Contents:
Re: Homebrew Taste ("David Houseman")
Lager Question (TARogue)
Re: Oxidation Help ("\\-s@roadrunner.com")


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
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Financial Projection as of 03 March 2012
*** Condition: Guarded ***
501(c)3 revoked in process of retroactive reinstatement.
See Site News on http://hbd.org for details and progress.
Projected 2012 Budget $3191.79
Expended against projection $ 721.78
Unplanned expenditures $ 79.98
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As always, donors and donations are publicly acknowledged
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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 08:40:00 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Homebrew Taste

Mike,

I agree that oxidation, from old stale liquid malt extract and hot-side
aeration is one of the problems with some homebrew. However in my
experience this doesn't result in the "wet cardboard" form of oxidation
which is more typically from oxygen introduced post fermentation. Rather
the result I sense is a dullness with muted, caramel-like notes. Oxidation
can take a number of sensory forms, and each person may describe their
perception differently so we may agree that oxidation isn't good and we
don't like the results.

David Houseman


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 10:48:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: TARogue <tarogue at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lager Question

I made an attempt at a lager last week. The krausen never got very big, but
it did go up and then settle back down. It sat in my basement at
48/48/50/52/54/56/54 degrees. High krausen occored on the first 54 degree
day, Today I racked it into secondary and moved it to a lagering fridge. The
initial gravity was 1.048. Today it was at 1.026.

The recipe was 22 lbs of US 2-row and 3 oz of Saaz hops. I mashed for about
45 min at 148. Mashed out with 190 degree liquor for 10 minutes and boiled
for 60. I used Fermentis dry lager yeast S-23.

The final gravity should be about 1.012. My question is: will it continue to
drop points when cooled to 36-38 degrees? Or should I take t back out and
move it somewhere warmer for a couple days?

And this is why I do so much better with ales.

- --

-Tom

http://www.facebook.com/Out.Haus

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 18:29:56 -0400
From: "\\-s at roadrunner.com" <"\\-s"@roadrunner.com>
Subject: Re: Oxidation Help

James R. Gregory asks for help regarding oxidation...

> I am a relatively new all grain home brewer and am trying to get rid of a
> slight "homebrew" taste in some of my brews. I suspect it may be oxidation
> related. To date I have bottle condition all brews.
>
>
>
> I am looking for advice on preventing oxidation. I try to keep splashing,
> etc. to a minimum when transferring from carboy to bottling bucket. So I am
> looking for other tips and any comments on the following:
>
>
>
> 1. Should I flush carboys, bottling bucket and bottles with co2. I
> read the recent "flushing" discussion and am still confused. Stupid
> question, but, if this is a good idea what is best way to get co2 equipment
> and rough cost.

You don't need to flush your primary fermenter as you want the yeast to
have access to O2. If you move the beer to a secondary fermenter you
should always do so while there is active fermentation under way - and
again there is no need to flush so long as the container is reasonable
full (95% full not 50%) and don't splash. If you are bottle
conditioning then I wouldn't use O2 scavenging caps, and you can just
fill normally and leave a cap sitting on top of the bottle to rest for a
minute before sealing. The CO2 from the beer will push out most of the
O2, and the remainder can be used by the yeast.

> 2. Are the more expensive bottling caps that absorb oxygen worth the
> money.
If you are bottling w/o bottle conditioning and you intend to store the
beer for much time or at suboptimal temps - then yes.


> 3. I have heard that adding a very small amount of sodium or potassium
> bisulfite to brew prevents oxidation. Anything to this and, if so, how is
> it done.
Yes - it's very effective. I suggest you start with campden tablets
(commonly used for wine making
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campden_tablets), or alternatively you can
get potassium metabisulfite powder which may be slightly better. I'd
add a minimum of 2 campden tables (~1gm) crushed to a 5 gallon mash.
You can certainly triple that amount. With "too much" you'll eventually
get a sulfury edge to the beer - not unlike a white wine - tho it
'works' well with some lagers.

Generally this makes the beer taste much fresher and a little crisper.
The sulfite acts as an anti-oxidant and even can convert come already
oxidized flavor actors to unoxidized states. The end products are
sulfate (which you may be adding as gypsum) and a little sodium or
potassium.

> 4. Any other suggestions.

In my experience it's rare to get bottle oxidation in a bottle
conditioned beer. I've done side-by-sides and the bottle conditioned
beers really do taste better much longer (it's just such a PITA to
bottle). So IF your problem is really oxidation - it's either happening
in the mash or else your ingredients are oxidized. Metabite in the mash
will cure any mash oxidation problem and maybe even help any ingredient
issues a little. My main ingredient concern would be to use good hops.
Hops oxidation is a real potential problem.

Another possibility is that you are getting yeast autolysis in the
bottle. Some yeast disintegrate after bottle conditioning and leave a
meaty-brothy flavor and even leaves some oily rancid flavors (a hint of
dead mouse). Most of the hi-alcohol ale yeasts do very well in the
bottle. Also you should end up with a little opaque layer of yeast in
the bottom of bottle - not a quarter inch.

-S

------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5923, 03/25/12
*************************************
-------

Friday, March 23, 2012

Homebrew Digest #5922 (March 23, 2012)

HOMEBREW Digest #5922 Fri 23 March 2012


FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
TODAY'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

No "sponsor-level" donation yet this year

Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a
501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
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Canton, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
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amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a business expense. Please consult with your
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************


Contents:
"Homebrew taste" ("Mike Maag")
Volume of a starter for a lager (Mike Schwartz)


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
meet its meager operating expenses of approximately $3500
per year. If less than half of those currently directly
subscribed to the HBD sent in a mere $5.00, the HBD would
be able to easily meet its annual expenses, with room to
spare for next year. Please consider it.

Financial Projection as of 03 March 2012
*** Condition: Guarded ***
501(c)3 revoked in process of retroactive reinstatement.
See Site News on http://hbd.org for details and progress.
Projected 2012 Budget $3191.79
Expended against projection $ 721.78
Unplanned expenditures $ 79.98
Projected Excess/(Shortfall) ($ 725.01)

As always, donors and donations are publicly acknowledged
and accounted for on the HBD web page. Thank you


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Spencer Thomas, and Bill Pierce


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 05:20:57 -0500
From: "Mike Maag" <mikemaag at comcast.net>
Subject: "Homebrew taste"

In my experience, "homebrew taste" has been from old stale extract, and/or
hot-side airation. The flavor is usually described as "wet cardboard".

Mike Maag
Shenendoah Valley

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 09:21:45 -0500
From: Mike Schwartz <mjs at seadogboats.com>
Subject: Volume of a starter for a lager

Art McGregor asked about the volume of a starter for a lager.

The required pitching rate depends mainly on ale/lager and OG. Two good
tools for determining required pitching rates and what you have are:

http://yeastcalc.com/

and

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

In the book Yeast by White and Zainasheff they state that yeast in a
vial that has sat upright until the yeast packs in the bottom (like a
White Labs tube) the density is approximately 8 billion cells/ml. This
would be the same density for your saved yeast if it has settled.
There's a lot of good info in that book.

You will find reference to pitching rates of roughly .75 million
cells/ml/degree plato for ales and 1.5 for lagers from several sources.
The first site linked above would let you calculate the approximate
number of cells that you have after your fermentation if you assume it
worked like a starter and you collected all the yeast.


Mike Schwartz
Beer Barons of Milwaukee
beerbarons.org
worldofbeerfestival.com

------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5922, 03/23/12
*************************************
-------

Thursday, March 22, 2012

Homebrew Digest #5921 (March 22, 2012)

HOMEBREW Digest #5921 Thu 22 March 2012


FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
TODAY'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

No "sponsor-level" donation yet this year

Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a
501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
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Canton, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
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amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a business expense. Please consult with your
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************


Contents:
Volume of a starter for a lager ("Art & Liz McGregor")
That "Homebrew Taste" ("Dunn, Scott C FLNR:EX")


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
meet its meager operating expenses of approximately $3500
per year. If less than half of those currently directly
subscribed to the HBD sent in a mere $5.00, the HBD would
be able to easily meet its annual expenses, with room to
spare for next year. Please consider it.

Financial Projection as of 03 March 2012
*** Condition: Guarded ***
501(c)3 revoked in process of retroactive reinstatement.
See Site News on http://hbd.org for details and progress.
Projected 2012 Budget $3191.79
Expended against projection $ 721.78
Unplanned expenditures $ 79.98
Projected Excess/(Shortfall) ($ 725.01)

As always, donors and donations are publicly acknowledged
and accounted for on the HBD web page. Thank you


Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
Spencer Thomas, and Bill Pierce


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 06:19:03 -0400
From: "Art & Liz McGregor" <a.l.mcgregor at verizon.net>
Subject: Volume of a starter for a lager

Greetings All,

I have a question on the volume of a starter for a lager (5 gal batch). I
have use 2 smack packs for my last 3 lagers with no problems, but wanted to
re-use some washed yeast from an earlier batch to save some money and
another trip to the homebrew store.

What is the recommended size for a starter for a lager. I thought it was
around 2 liters or 2 quarts for a 5 gal batch. Is that the volume of the
wort and washed yeast, or is the volume of the decanted yeast after the
starter is done? Since it is recommended that you pitch at high krausen, I
would believe it is the combined volume of the wort and yeast in the
starter.

Thanks in advance.

Hoppy Brewing,

Art McGregor
(Northern Virginia)
<Art.McGregor at yahoo.com>
<A.L.mcgregor at verizon.net>


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 08:11:54 -0700
From: "Dunn, Scott C FLNR:EX" <Scott.Dunn at gov.bc.ca>
Subject: That "Homebrew Taste"

Hello All:

Not to belabour the point to much, I hope most of understood the use of
quotation marks in my post. I used them to characterize a generic criticism
of home made beer. We have all heard those comments from when we first
started making beer. Hmmm you made that yourself eh, that has a rather taste,
Wow that sure does not taste like store bought beer, etc...

I do like the points Dave makes, looking after the details and being squeaky
clean is the secret. The thing I do not like about plastics is that they can
be very hard to get really clean, the micro cracks can easily harbour
bacteria. When I finally got rid of the unwanted guest in my brew, I figured
out they were living in side walls of my primary fermenter plastic bucket. I
switched to splitting the batch into two glass carbouys with bubblers for a
week then into a single once the krausen had gone down and presto bango my
brew tasted great.

Like I said this is what worked for me.

On another note I am looking for discussion and a design about a counter
pressure bottle filler, has anyone got on?

I hope this helps

Scott C. Dunn RPF

------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5921, 03/22/12
*************************************
-------

Wednesday, March 21, 2012

Homebrew Digest #5920 (March 21, 2012)

HOMEBREW Digest #5920 Wed 21 March 2012


FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
TODAY'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

No "sponsor-level" donation yet this year

Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a
501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
or more will be provided with receipts. SPONSORSHIPS of any
amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a business expense. Please consult with your
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************


Contents:
RE: Homebrew taste ("David Houseman")


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
meet its meager operating expenses of approximately $3500
per year. If less than half of those currently directly
subscribed to the HBD sent in a mere $5.00, the HBD would
be able to easily meet its annual expenses, with room to
spare for next year. Please consider it.

Financial Projection As of 03 March 2012
*** Condition: Guarded ***
501(c)3 revoked in process of retroactive reinstatement.
See Site News on http://hbd.org for details and progress.
Projected 2012 Budget $3191.79
Expended against projection $ 721.78
Unplanned expenditures $ 79.98
Projected Excess/(Shortfall) ($ 725.01)

As always, donors and donations are publicly acknowledged
and accounted for on the HBD web page. Thank you


Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
Spencer Thomas, and Bill Pierce


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 07:15:41 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman at verizon.net>
Subject: RE: Homebrew taste

All,

I don't believe there is one characteristic of "homebrew taste." I've been
brewing for 20+ years and judging for most of that time. I do agree that
one can often pick out characteristics of homebrew versus good commercial
quality brewing, but there are a number of things we need to do to improve
our beers. Plastic, the right plastic, is fine if treated well. Using
the proper water, really good yeast management, full 6+gallon boils, rapid
chilling, good aeration, fully attenuating the beer, proper sanitation, and
taking care of oxidation all will improve our beers significantly. Dry
yeast, at least modern dry yeasts make just as good beer as liquid yeasts if
one handles both properly. There's no one magic bullet for everyone, but
each of us may need to make changes in one or more of these elements of
brewing.

David Houseman


------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5920, 03/21/12
*************************************
-------

Tuesday, March 20, 2012

Homebrew Digest #5919 (March 20, 2012)

HOMEBREW Digest #5919 Tue 20 March 2012


FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
TODAY'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

Logic, Inc. - Makers of Straight A Cleanser
www.ecologiccleansers.com

Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a
501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton Township, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
or more will be provided with receipts. SPONSORSHIPS of any
amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a business expense. Please consult with your
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************


Contents:
Homebrew taste (Thomas Rohner)


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
meet its meager operating expenses of approximately $3500
per year. If less than half of those currently directly
subscribed to the HBD sent in a mere $5.00, the HBD would
be able to easily meet its annual expenses, with room to
spare for next year. Please consider it.

Financial Projection As of 03 March 2012
*** Condition: Guarded ***
501(c)3 revoked in process of retroactive reinstatement.
See Site News on http://hbd.org for details and progress.
Projected 2012 Budget $3191.79
Expended against projection $ 721.78
Unplanned expenditures $ 79.98
Projected Excess/(Shortfall) ($ 725.01)

As always, donors and donations are publicly acknowledged
and accounted for on the HBD web page. Thank you


Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
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The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright
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before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content
cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to
req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
Spencer Thomas, and Bill Pierce


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 09:37:58 +0100
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Homebrew taste

Hello all

I think Scott is right, abandon plastics, if you can.

When i started brewing, i was pretty happy with the results.
My first brews were with english ale yeasts.
Then we switched to all grain and gradually it dawned on me, that this
distinctive taste/aroma wasn't the yeast signature.
We switched to bottom fermenting yeasts and some "clean" top fermenters
like Wyeast 1007.

For us, it wasn't economical to use glass or stainless as our
fermenters, so we use HDPE. (We brew 15gal and intend to double this year)

One night, i met this guy in a bar and he told me, he has a brewmaster
degree.
We talked for a while and i told him my troubles. He asked me about the
sanitizer we used and told me, that this is most likely the culprit.

Since he was working for a company, that sells sanitizer for the food
industry, he offered me a sample of his suggested sanitizer. (What a
coincidence ;-)

We started using it and woosh, our lagers started to have that clean,
crisp aroma. (only more hop aroma, than most storebought stuff)

The problem was our HDPE fermenters in combination with a aromatic
sanitizer. We also sniff into our fermenters, before we use them. When
the start smelling too much, we give them a good long bleach soak, then
rinse them with hot water and don't use them for some time.(We put them
in the back of out fermenter storage...)
When we finally use them, the smell like... nothing.

This works for us, but if you can ditch plastic, do it.

Cheers

Thomas


------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5919, 03/20/12
*************************************
-------

Monday, March 19, 2012

Homebrew Digest #5918 (March 19, 2012)

HOMEBREW Digest #5918 Mon 19 March 2012


FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
TODAY'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

Logic, Inc. - Makers of Straight A Cleanser
www.ecologiccleansers.com

Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a
501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton Township, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
or more will be provided with receipts. SPONSORSHIPS of any
amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a business expense. Please consult with your
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************


Contents:
That "Homebrew" taste ("Dunn, Scott C FLNR:EX")


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
meet its meager operating expenses of approximately $3500
per year. If less than half of those currently directly
subscribed to the HBD sent in a mere $5.00, the HBD would
be able to easily meet its annual expenses, with room to
spare for next year. Please consider it.

Financial Projection As of 03 March 2012
*** Condition: Guarded ***
501(c)3 revoked in process of retroactive reinstatement.
See Site News on http://hbd.org for details and progress.
Projected 2012 Budget $3191.79
Expended against projection $ 721.78
Unplanned expenditures $ 79.98
Projected Excess/(Shortfall) ($ 725.01)

As always, donors and donations are publicly acknowledged
and accounted for on the HBD web page. Thank you


Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
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http://hbd.org.

LOOKING TO BUY OR SELL USED EQUIPMENT? Please do not post about it here. Go
instead to http://homebrewfleamarket.com and post a free ad there.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright
HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK
before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content
cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to
req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
Spencer Thomas, and Bill Pierce


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 08:50:58 -0700
From: "Dunn, Scott C FLNR:EX" <Scott.Dunn at gov.bc.ca>
Subject: That "Homebrew" taste

Hello Jim:

I also struggled with that "homebrew" taste for part of a year. I started to
not like my own beers!

I was persistent, hunted it down and got rid of it. For me it was not what I
thought and I suspect it is not what you are thinking it might be. Here are a
few of the things that helped me.

I got rid of everything plastic. I now only use Glass, Stainless steel,
Copper or Brass.

I soak all glass equipment over night in TSP at a ratio of 1/4cup per 5
gallons. Scrub the pots with a Scotch brite pad to get the protein scum off
the bottom. Triple rinse and store dry. Rinse the brew system with boiling
water before brewing while grinding my grain and getting ready.

I chill with a counterflow chiller, aerate and pitch. I use fresh yeast and
repitch only once after washing the cake.

I use glass carbouys for the primary for 5 days then transfer off the trub
into secondary glass carbouys for a week or so to clear.

I soak my bottles in a TSP mixture to get rid of bacterial build up. That
fog on the bottles means they are not clean. Just before bottling I rinse
with Star San. I boil the caps for a few minutes to clean and soften the
rubber. I use brown bottles and store for a week at 72'F then into the cool
room at 60'F for a month or so.

This works for me, others may have different techniques.

I hope this helps

Scott C. Dunn RPF

------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5918, 03/19/12
*************************************
-------

Friday, March 16, 2012

Homebrew Digest #5917 (March 16, 2012)

HOMEBREW Digest #5917 Fri 16 March 2012


FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
TODAY'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

Logic, Inc. - Makers of Straight A Cleanser
www.ecologiccleansers.com

Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a
501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton Township, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
or more will be provided with receipts. SPONSORSHIPS of any
amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a business expense. Please consult with your
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************


Contents:
Re: PID's ("Jeff Dieterle")


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
meet its meager operating expenses of approximately $3500
per year. If less than half of those currently directly
subscribed to the HBD sent in a mere $5.00, the HBD would
be able to easily meet its annual expenses, with room to
spare for next year. Please consider it.

Financial Projection As of 03 March 2012
*** Condition: Guarded ***
501(c)3 revoked in process of retroactive reinstatement.
See Site News on http://hbd.org for details and progress.
Projected 2012 Budget $3191.79
Expended against projection $ 721.78
Unplanned expenditures $ 79.98
Projected Excess/(Shortfall) ($ 725.01)

As always, donors and donations are publicly acknowledged
and accounted for on the HBD web page. Thank you


Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
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IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
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for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

LOOKING TO BUY OR SELL USED EQUIPMENT? Please do not post about it here. Go
instead to http://homebrewfleamarket.com and post a free ad there.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright
HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK
before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content
cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to
req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
Spencer Thomas, and Bill Pierce


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:05:56 -0400
From: "Jeff Dieterle" <jddieterle at hughes.net>
Subject: Re: PID's

"It just occurred to me that perhaps Jeff's confusion about stability stems
from thinking that the on/off cycling of the output gets fed back to the
input of the controller i.e. that the PV signal has modulation on it. It
doesn't. The thermal mass of the water or mash is a big low pass filter.
Though I'm cycling on a 30 second cycle the thermal time constant of the
load is minutes. Does that help?"

Yes to a degree, my experience with closed loop control was in the high
pressure hydraulic industry with speed control loops on extrusion presses,
more responsive to error. In your situation using the foot pedal versus
closed loop control, an expensive option to stay closed loop is replacing
the steam pedal with an electrically actuated variable steam control valve
with its own cmd/fdbk positioning loop independent of the pid controller.
The valve positioning loop would be commanded by the 4-20ma output from the
pid, the mash temp would be the PV and target temp would be the SP.

------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5917, 03/16/12
*************************************
-------

Thursday, March 15, 2012

Homebrew Digest #5916 (March 15, 2012)

HOMEBREW Digest #5916 Thu 15 March 2012


FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
TODAY'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

Logic, Inc. - Makers of Straight A Cleanser
www.ecologiccleansers.com

Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a
501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton Township, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
or more will be provided with receipts. SPONSORSHIPS of any
amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a business expense. Please consult with your
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************


Contents:
More PID ("A. J. deLange")
Oxidation Help ("James R. Gregory")


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
meet its meager operating expenses of approximately $3500
per year. If less than half of those currently directly
subscribed to the HBD sent in a mere $5.00, the HBD would
be able to easily meet its annual expenses, with room to
spare for next year. Please consider it.

Financial Projection As of 03 March 2012
*** Condition: Guarded ***
501(c)3 revoked in process of retroactive reinstatement.
See Site News on http://hbd.org for details and progress.
Projected 2012 Budget $3191.79
Expended against projection $ 721.78
Unplanned expenditures $ 79.98
Projected Excess/(Shortfall) ($ 725.01)

As always, donors and donations are publicly acknowledged
and accounted for on the HBD web page. Thank you


Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

LOOKING TO BUY OR SELL USED EQUIPMENT? Please do not post about it here. Go
instead to http://homebrewfleamarket.com and post a free ad there.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright
HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK
before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content
cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to
req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
Spencer Thomas, and Bill Pierce


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 01:25:35 -0400
From: "A. J. deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: More PID

Jeff sees a conflict between two of my posts on PID controllers. I'm not
sure what the conflict is so assume it must be based on me not being
clear about what I actually do in my brewery so I'll try amplifying on that.

I have 1 single channel controller which runs the HLT using full PID
with output being on and off cycling of steam on a 30 second cycle. It
was auto tuned with the HLT full of water. It goes to set point,
overshoots a wee bit and then settles right in at the setpoint.

I also have a dual channel controller which controls the steam to my
mashtun/kettle and decoction vessel/kettle also with on/off output on a
30 second cycle. If I tune the mash tun with water and then try to
control the temperature of mash I get too much overshoot/droop or it
takes to long to get to SP i.e. the tune set for water is not the tune
set for mash and even if it were the tune set for a mash with 120 lbs of
grain would not be the tune set for a mash with 75. As I am not
comfortable with the overshoot and don't want to wait for an underdamped
tuning I don't use PID when there is grain in either of these kettles.
But if I do (i.e. when I did in the past) the controller behaves just
like a PID controller with the wrong tune set.

Now during collection of wort during lauter/sparge (I collect into both
vessels) or in bringing strike water up to temperature for dough in I do
use PID with this controller and it works perfectly normally.

Hope that clears thing up.

It just occurred to me that perhaps Jeff's confusion about stability
stems from thinking that the on/off cycling of the output gets fed back
to the input of the controller i.e. that the PV signal has modulation on
it. It doesn't. The thermal mass of the water or mash is a big low pass
filter. Though I'm cycling on a 30 second cycle the thermal time
constant of the load is minutes. Does that help?

A.J.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 10:12:31 -0400
From: "James R. Gregory" <jgregory at gregoryreedlaw.com>
Subject: Oxidation Help

I am a relatively new all grain home brewer and am trying to get rid of a
slight "homebrew" taste in some of my brews. I suspect it may be oxidation
related. To date I have bottle condition all brews.

I am looking for advice on preventing oxidation. I try to keep splashing,
etc. to a minimum when transferring from carboy to bottling bucket. So I am
looking for other tips and any comments on the following:

1. Should I flush carboys, bottling bucket and bottles with co2. I
read the recent "flushing" discussion and am still confused. Stupid
question, but, if this is a good idea what is best way to get co2 equipment
and rough cost.

2. Are the more expensive bottling caps that absorb oxygen worth the
money.

3. I have heard that adding a very small amount of sodium or potassium
bisulfite to brew prevents oxidation. Anything to this and, if so, how is
it done.

4. Any other suggestions.

Thanks,

Jim

James Gregory

Gregory & Reed, P.C.

2 Sylvan Way

Parsippany, NJ 07054

(973) 898-1400

PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL

The information contained in this electronic transmission is privileged and
confidential information intended for the sole use of the addressee. If the
reader of this electronic transmission is not the intended recipient, or an
employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient,
you are hereby notified that any downloading, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.

If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please
immediately notify the sender and destroy the electronic copy that you have
improperly received.


------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5916, 03/15/12
*************************************
-------

Wednesday, March 14, 2012

Homebrew Digest #5915 (March 14, 2012)

HOMEBREW Digest #5915 Wed 14 March 2012


FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
TODAY'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

Logic, Inc. - Makers of Straight A Cleanser
www.ecologiccleansers.com

Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a
501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton Township, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
or more will be provided with receipts. SPONSORSHIPS of any
amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a business expense. Please consult with your
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************


Contents:
Re: PID ("Devonna Dieterle")


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
meet its meager operating expenses of approximately $3500
per year. If less than half of those currently directly
subscribed to the HBD sent in a mere $5.00, the HBD would
be able to easily meet its annual expenses, with room to
spare for next year. Please consider it.

Financial Projection As of 03 March 2012
*** Condition: Guarded ***
501(c)3 revoked in process of retroactive reinstatement.
See Site News on http://hbd.org for details and progress.
Projected 2012 Budget $3191.79
Expended against projection $ 721.78
Unplanned expenditures $ 79.98
Projected Excess/(Shortfall) ($ 725.01)

As always, donors and donations are publicly acknowledged
and accounted for on the HBD web page. Thank you


Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

LOOKING TO BUY OR SELL USED EQUIPMENT? Please do not post about it here. Go
instead to http://homebrewfleamarket.com and post a free ad there.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright
HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK
before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content
cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to
req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
Spencer Thomas, and Bill Pierce


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 05:14:34 -0400
From: "Devonna Dieterle" <djdieterle at hughes.net>
Subject: Re: PID

"The arguments I gave above, the simulation I ran and most important, the
fact that I have three channels of PID control in my brewery that use on/off
output with a PID algorithm make it clear that this guess is not a good one
at all. We might also ask ourselves why, if this guess had any validity,
manufacturers would offer this output mode in a PID controller."

"The only way to do this is during a mash and the autotune

feature of your controller is interested in auto tuning - not mashing so

you will probably have to waste the grain used to obtain the tuneset.

Tuning for water in the mashtun has not worked for me. As a consequence

I control the mash and decoctions manually (pedally actually - I have a

pedal switch I step on to turn on the steam). All the controller does is

take and display temperature readings."

AJ the only reason I entered the conversation was the second quote from you
posted a few days back regarding pid tuning, it seems to be in direct
conflict with the first quote above posted yesterday.


------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #5915, 03/14/12
*************************************
-------

Monday, March 12, 2012

Homebrew Digest #5914 (March 12, 2012)

HOMEBREW Digest #5914 Mon 12 March 2012


FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
TODAY'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

Logic, Inc. - Makers of Straight A Cleanser
www.ecologiccleansers.com

Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a
501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton Township, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250
or more will be provided with receipts. SPONSORSHIPS of any
amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a business expense. Please consult with your
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************


Contents:
PID Algorithm ("A. J. deLange")


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

NOTE: With the economy as it is, the HBD is struggling to
meet its meager operating expenses of approximately $3500
per year. If less than half of those currently directly
subscribed to the HBD sent in a mere $5.00, the HBD would
be able to easily meet its annual expenses, with room to
spare for next year. Please consider it.

Financial Projection As of 03 March 2012
*** Condition: Guarded ***
501(c)3 revoked in process of retroactive reinstatement.
See Site News on http://hbd.org for details and progress.
Projected 2012 Budget $3191.79
Expended against projection $ 721.78
Unplanned expenditures $ 79.98
Projected Excess/(Shortfall) ($ 725.01)

As always, donors and donations are publicly acknowledged
and accounted for on the HBD web page. Thank you


Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

LOOKING TO BUY OR SELL USED EQUIPMENT? Please do not post about it here. Go
instead to http://homebrewfleamarket.com and post a free ad there.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright
HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK
before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content
cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to
req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
Spencer Thomas, and Bill Pierce


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 04:13:20 -0400
From: "A. J. deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: PID Algorithm

"Error is not the proportional term."

Jeff is apparently still confused on how PID controllers work. They start by
computing an error, the difference between the process variable and the set
point. For a heating load

E = SP - PV

and the set point is the upper edge of the proportional band. The lower edge
is at SP - Band where 'Band' is the band width in PV units (i.e. degrees).

The proportional term from the controller is G*(SP - PV)/Band where G limits
the output to 0 - 1 (0 to 100%). Thus if PV = SP - Band the output of the
proportional term is 0. If PV< SP - Band G sets the output to 0. If PV> SP
the output is 0 (unless the controller is set up to simultaneously control
heating and cooling loads). If PV = SP-Band then the proportional output is 1
(100%). If PV< SP - Band then the output is still 100%.

Thus, clearly the error scaled by gain = 1/Band is indeed the proportional
term.

" With only proportional gain the error will oscillate around the setpoint,
but never

eliminate/minimize the error."

If a controller is run with only the proportional term it cannot (unless the
load is 0) ever bring the PV to SP so the second part is true. There will be
some finite error necessary to establish the output required to supply the
load (heat losses). But a P-only controller does not oscillate at all unless
the proportional gain is set absurdly high (band to a fraction of a degree)
in which case oscillation does occur but not around the set point. In the
usual case the PV simply assymptotically approaches some value less than the
SP.

"It's take the integral term which integrates

its gain value as a function of time to reduce the error beyond the ability

of proportional gain."

It is not the gain which is integrated but rather the error. The integrated
error is then scaled by a gain and that plus the proportional error is the
output. The constant error from P integrates up calling for more output until
such time as the total error goes to 0. The integrator holds its value for
ever - it computes the integral from startup to the current time. E is also
differentiated. The differential is also scaled by a gain and added to the
output.

Output = G*[E/Band + g2*Integral_-infinity_to_t(E) + g3*dE/dt]

The differential term responds to sudden changes in PV (SP) such as throwing
a block of ice into the mash tun and also helps damp overshoot after an SP
step. Proper tuning (correct choice of Band, g2 and g3 are required for
optimum performance of a PID controller. These differ as thermal mass and
rate of heat loss from the thing being heated vary.

"Lacking a method to infinitely vary the output in

response to error makes the ability of the integral term to extinguish the

error not managed by proportional gain a pretty tough putt in a closed loop

system."

Not so. This can easily be verified by writing a simple simulation in which
you coarsely quantize the output. But more to the point, as I explained in
the last post controllers that use Output, as computed above, to control
relative on and off times, be it within a cycle of the 60 Hz line or within a
30 second or longer cycle time do provide infinite control (subject to the
quantization of Output i.e. whether the controller resolves to 1% or 0.1%).

"My best guess is with an on/off output, any integral gain value

applied will wind-up in value and put the system back in oscillation."

The arguments I gave above, the simulation I ran and most important, the
fact that I have three channels of PID control in my brewery that use on/off
output with a PID algorithm make it clear that this guess is not a good one
at all. We might also ask ourselves why, if this guess had any validity,
manufacturers would offer this output mode in a PID controller.

"Most

pid controllers also have a filter on the PV signal before it is passed to

the pid algorithm. If this value is increased to the point that the pv

signal is effectively dampened out of it's normal responsive range the loop

can also appear to be in a steady state."

Again simple simulation shows what happens if the input is excessively low
pass filtered. The loop will come to equilibrium at the set point eventually
but the overshoot/undershoot after a SP step can get kind of wild. Increasing
the differential gain will take a lot of that out and speed up convergence
but obviously if the input is low pass filtered it is going to take longer to
respond to a step in SP or load.

Details of how PID works must be in dozens of textbooks. Suggest Jeff look
at one of those. Playing around with simulations is also most instructive.
Most convincing of all, I suppose, would be to set up a PID controller with
on/off output and watch it play.

A.J.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #5914, 03/12/12
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