FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
RE: Cider (David Kudrav)
Re: Cider ("Michael P.Thompson")
Re: Cider (Tim Bray)
Re: Cider (Robert Tower)
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Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 09:44:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: David Kudrav <dkudrav at hiwaay.net>
Subject: RE: Cider
Last year I made a hard cider for the first time.
I bought four gallons of fresh, local cider with no preservatives.
I added 3lbs of clover honey (not local) and about 1/2 gallon of water.
I pitched one packet of champagne yeast.
I let it ferment about 1 month in primary and another two in secondary.
(But believe one month in secondary would have been enough).
I kegged it and only hooked it to serving pressure, so it did eventually
become lightly sparkling.
Everyone loved it.
Two or three things I may change this year:
-Make it 5 gallons instead of 4 gallons of cider.
-Possibly make a true cyser, rather than cider by adding significantly
more honey. (May or may not do this).
-Use local honey.
Hope this helps,
Dave
Huntsville, AL
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Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 13:43:49 -0600
From: "Michael P.Thompson" <thompson at ecentral.com>
Subject: Re: Cider
On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:18:56 -0500, Joe Dunne <jrdunne at
hotmail.com> wrote:
> As the fall arrives, a friend is encouraging me to brew a batch of
> cider,
> which I have never attempted.
>
> His plan is to pick up some unpasteurized cider at the farmers market.
Sounds like a decent plan. There's a good article by Mark Pasquinelli
in the latest issue of Zymurgy about making cider. Very informative,
and it would probably be of great help to you. See http://tinyurl.com/
26y8gne for details if you don't get the magazine.
Michael
- --
Doras Cuil Travel--Your one-stop travel source
Certified Destination Specialist for Ireland and Scotland
http://www.dorascuil.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:02:02 -0700
From: Tim Bray <tbray at wildblue.net>
Subject: Re: Cider
Fall must be approaching - the first Cider questions are popping up,
like the early apples falling from the trees...
> His plan is to pick up some unpasteurized cider at the farmers market.
OK so far. What they call "cider" (only in America) is actually juice;
properly, Cider is fermented juice. (In America, "cider" has become a
marketing term - it has no formal definition, despite what many people
think.)
Fresh juice for drinking has a balance between acidity and sweetness.
When you ferment it, the sweetness disappears entirely (all the sugars
are easily metabolized by yeast). Ciders made from drinkable juices are
often too acidic as a result, so you want to start with a juice that is
cloyingly sweet - it should have virtually no perceptible tartness.
> > From what I have read recently, you should either heat the cider to
> pasteurize it or add campden tablets.
>
> Is one of these preferable to the other?
To me, sulfite is far preferable to pasteurization. Heating fruit juice
is generally a bad idea, it sets the pectin (so the finished product
will never clear) and it changes the flavor. You can adjust your dosage
of sulfite (Campden tablets) depending on how you want to ferment the cider.
> My understanding is that the campden tablets will not necessarily knock
> out the potential naturally occurring yeast that may be in the cider
> while heating it certainly would.
>
> I'm planning to pitch a cider yeast anyway, so I'm not sure if it matters
> for us.
Both true. And since you are planning to pitch yeast, you can use
around 100 ppm sulfite to stun the wild yeast and bacteria, wait 24
hours, and pitch your yeast. I think that's 2 Campden tablets per gallon.
> Also, in an attempt to keep this simple (we both have kids and little
> free time) I'm not planning to back sweeten, just ferment it out and
> see what it's like.
>
> In the event it is too tart and we decide to back sweeten, do I need to worry
> about cider yeast reaching an unpleasantly high alcohol content?
Yes, because if you don't kill the yeast, it will simply consume
whatever sugar you backsweeten with, and it will keep doing that until
it reaches an alcohol toxicity limit or you give up, whichever comes
first. The natural sugar content of most apple juices will produce a
dry cider of around 5 to 7 percent alcohol; really sweet juices
sometimes get to 8%, rarely even more. Most Saccharomyces yeast strains
will tolerate two to three times those levels.
You can get around this a few different ways: Use a less-fermentable
sugar source (like honey, which often improves a marginal cider) or a
nonfermentable sweetener; kill the yeast by pasteurizing before
backsweetening; or, sulfite to stun the yeast, chill to drop it out,
rack off, sorbate to prevent budding, and then backsweeten.
> Or, should I assume that the cider yeast will stop working at a
> relatively pleasant alcohol level and that the addition
> of late sugars will only add sweetness?
If you find such a yeast, send it to me! Or get one of the yeast labs
to propagate it - North American cidermakers would be delighted to have
such an option. Alas, all Saccharomyces strains metabolize fruit
sugars quite readily and therefore produce a dry cider. This is why
many of us persist in gambling on spontaneous fermentations: some wild
yeasts have very low alcohol tolerance, and you can end up with a
finished cider with residual sweetness. That's kind of the Grail for
cidermakers, but it's a risky endeavour, because the alcohol levels
aren't high enough to suppress some of the other bugs that will spoil
the product.
> Also, any thoughts on aging vs. drinking it by/on Halloween would be welcome.
Generally cider will improve a lot with several months of aging, up to
about 2 years. Young ciders are often harsh and overly acidic. It
might be drinkable by Halloween, and I read a lot of accounts from
people who say their ciders taste great after only a couple of months,
so YMMV.
As with beer, fermentation temperature is important. The best ciders
are made with cold fermentations - the slower the better, basically.
Cheers,
Tim in Albion, CA
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:07:25 -0700
From: Robert Tower <roberttower at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Cider
Joe Dunne of Chicago inquired about making cider from unpasteurized
juice (apple I'm assuming). Yes, it's true that if you want your cider
yeast to be the exclusive fermenter then you need to use campden tablets
or some other form of sulfite. Otherwise, you'll get a mixed culture
fermentation and depending on what's already in the juice, this may turn
out wonderful or not-so-wonderful.
My technique is to use a readily available dry fruit wine yeast (Lalvin
K1V-1116). This is described as a "killer" strain, and I've never been
able to figure out if that means that it simply will out-compete any
other strains that are present or if it really does kill other microbes.
Regardless, it definitely works. I never sanitize any of my equipment
pre-fermentation, making sure only that it is clean. I've never had even
the slightest contamination or off-flavors. Admittedly, I've never tried
this using other strains so I don't know if it's simply a function of
the acidity and alcohol that is achieving this or if it indeed is a
function of this particular strain. But if you are looking to avoid
adding sulfites or pasteurizing, I whole heartedly recommend using this
particular yeast strain.
I would also recommend that you invest $10 or so in an acid test kit.
They are extremely simple to use. In my experience, if the juice needs
any correcting it's that it is acid deficient. In this case, you add
malic acid or acid blend. The directions that come with the test kit
will tell you how much to add. I bring the acidity up to 0.6% total
acidity and I've found this to be a good balance. Your tastes may
differ, but I would suggest this level as a starting point.
As far as alcohol levels go, most apple juice averages about 1.050, and
it will ferment down to dryness, about 0.996 to 1.000, leaving you
around 7% ABV. If you back sweeten, the yeast will wake up and start
fermenting (eventually) again so if you want to retain the sweetness you
will need to stop the yeast with a combination of sulfite and potassium
sorbate. Read up on using the sorbate because if you add too much you
may end up with off-flavors. I like my cider dry so I don't back sweeten
generally, but I've found if the fermentation stops around 1.000 most
people don't find it too dry. At 0.996 it's noticeably dry. If you do
back sweeten be careful to not go overboard. I've found that 3-4 points
of specific gravity increase will make noticeable increases in the
perceived sweetness.
If you want to have the cider ready by Halloween I would recommend
adding yeast nutrient, thoroughly aerating the juice ("must" is the
correct term at this point), and fermenting at warmer temperatures (70
F.). If you do these three things, it will be fermented down to dryness
within 7-10 days and you can then rack to secondary and let it set for
two more weeks before you bottle or keg.
However, if you are not in a rush, I would recommend fermenting at 60 F.
for a slower ferment. The advantage to this is that much more of the
delicate apple aromas are not "boiled off" as they are in a violent and
quick ferment. I've experimented with fermentations as high as 90 F. and
as low as 50 F. and have settled on a happy medium of 60 F. At this
temperature you retain the aromas but you finish primary fermentation in
a reasonable amount of time. At 50 F. it takes months to finish rather
than weeks. Even at 90 F. the cider tasted good with no off-flavors but
it was a lot less aromatic and had less overall character. Extended
aging in secondary will also improve the cider, but it's the law of
diminishing returns. Once during a particularly hectic time in my life,
I let a batch set in secondary for a full year before I bottled it and
it was the best batch I ever made. How much better? Well, only a little
bit better but it was noticeable. However, I would have rather been
drinking it months earlier in its "not quite as good" state rather than
having to wait so long. Someday I'll get it together to make enough of
it each year so that it can rest a whole year without my running out of
the previous batch. We all have our goals in life!
Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
Bob Tower / Los Angeles, CA
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End of HOMEBREW Digest #5723, 08/29/10
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